to find onlookers infuriating.

[Unclearpath]

I'm still reeling from an earlier event, so my emotions may be running high.

I'm just so angry that so many unacceptable incidents occur in public and no one steps in to help.

I've just been followed back to my car and verbally abused while holding my child because I stood up to group of people- legally adults but clearly children- who kicked off and began screaming at a shop assistant- because she asked them not to eat another food chains food on their premises. The diner was sat under a sign that reiterated this. Not one other person stood up for her and the management, when finally arrived, did not do enough to protect his staff member as far as I'm concerned. I also let rip to him privately I his office after, I was disgusted. There were plenty of other people who just sat and gawped as this poor women cowered in the corner being aggressively shouted at.

Several people passed my child and I on the way back to the car- did one person stop to show support given the gang of loud and abusive people following us? Did they hell.

How can you just walk past it. I hate confrontation, I hate injustice even more. I've seen it so many times. Fights erupting and women being hit by their husbands for example. And yet no one helps. I understand sometimes it's not safe, so then call the bloody police at least.

Rant over.

I used to be very much a just pile-in type until a conversation with a woman in a pub whose brother had died trying to break up a pub fight made me think.

Thinking for a moment often reveals that there's a no confrontation option - phone the police, go fetch a member of staff, shout down that you're calling police from a safe distance etc. I don't think this focus on heroics is at all helpful because it does contribute to people naturally freezing in a situation IMO. (If the only response that comes to mind is wildly unsafe, of course most people will freeze).

I used to live in a first floor flat above several busy pubs & takeaways, & Saturday night fights were a regular occurrence (worsened by passersby jumping in). I'm awed by the skill of police at talking down a situation - one small policewoman defusing a fight between 15 burly lads is a sight to see. I just don't have that skill, so I'd be stupid to charge in - phoning the police when I hear it kicking off is the best thing I can do.

The conversation isn't about rescue workers, either. It's about onlookers. Why don't you just re-read the OP.

The conversation isn't about rescue workers, either. It's about onlookers. Why don't you just re-read the OP.

"Well, there you go, then. Look after yourself. Let everybody drown and let everybody die. Just look after number 1."

"Would be rescuers die all the time. Look at Cornwall. There are endless stories about people dying attempting to rescue dogs who climbed out of the water unaided"

"The point is, heroes are heroes and look after number 1 cowards are just that."

Are those not your words? Did you not type those?

You have made it very clear that people that don't put their lives on the line are cowards.

But I do get your point. You've never put yourself at risk to help a stranger, and need to deflect the topic away from that, lest you look like a hypocrite.

"But I do get your point. You've never put yourself at risk to help a stranger, and need to deflect the topic away from that, lest you look like a hypocrite."

Agree with this from bulbasaur, Until you have been there it it very easy to call others names.

Agree with bulb.

Dora is grasping now.

Oh dear. This has all gotten a bit odd.

Originally Dora I thought we might be on the same page. . However I can't say that we are.

My whole point of the thread was that I found it difficult to understand how people could see something so wrong and do nothing. I can certainly see both sides of the argument and I do not consider them Cowards, but I find it hard.

My motto is treat others how you want to be treated. Unfortunately I know from bitter experience that people don't often step in to help, but if you would like someone to intervene in a situation where YOU were being attached, don't you think it's fair that you step in to help other people?

Those people saying "you have to protect your DC" etc etc, well the woman being attacked in the OP is someone's DD too. What if, in however many years time, it WAS your DD? Wouldn't you want someone to step in?

YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually

Something for you to ponder. In two out of the three occasions I was attacked by the person that I was trying to defend.

On the third occasion the shop keeper shut up shop and ignored what was now going on outside the cafe.
Would you want any of your children to be in that position?

The definitions of cowardice, bravery, responsibility and so on can be defined.

unclear you're right. An element of this thread has turned into an argument about who owns the right to define these terms. And that doesn't have much to do with your OP. But, the nature of your OP did make it fairly inevitable that it would turn into a discussion argument about that.

One of the problems is that people are using the terms without defining them. And that is always a recipe for a bunfight.

For instance, I would define bravery as encountering fear or danger without hesitation in regard to the consequences for oneself. (And, yes, for those who ask, I have encountered it.)

I would define cowardice as flinching from ones moral or statutory duty in regard to the safety or protection of others through fear or lack of moral fibre.

My moral duty is to protect the most vulnerable person there. My dd. No one comes before her.

An element of this thread has turned into an argument about who owns the right to define these terms.

Dora it is you that wishes to redefine these terms. everyone else seems quite happy with them.

A number have confused cowardice with responsibility. Being happy banging nails in with a spade doesn't make a spade a hammer.

Warning - mention of violent incident in the post below.

To me there are two separate things being discussed here. One is a situation where you step in, putting yourself in danger from say, an aggressor. For example, someone is being attacked and you physically step in. The other is a situation where someone is in need of assistance that will probably not put you at risk, such as lying collapsed on the street. I know someone who collapsed on the street and many people walked past before one lady stopped and called an ambulance, and waited with her till it came. She saved her life, it was a very serious incident.

I don't understand people who can ignore those in need of help in the second situation. I just don't get it, and I could not be tolerant of anyone who left someone suffering like that.

With the first, I can understand the fear and I think it is reasonable to pick your battles there. I would like to think that if I saw someone at real risk I would try to do something, but to be honest I've not been in that position. I do remember when I was at school it was reported that a woman was raped in the local bus station, with many people standing around who ignored it. That is inexplicable to me, there were so many of them including young healthy strong men and women that they surely could have felt confident to at least do something, in fact as a group they could have physically intervened. Why did no one even call the police?

Other times, like when teenagers in a dodgy area are being noisy on the bus, I don't say anything as it isn't worth the genuine risk of being seriously injured. I've lived in some quite dangerous areas that are the worse 2% of the Uk for crime and you do have to be careful. I absolutely hate that it has come to that though.

Dora

calling the spade a hammer doesn't make it a hammer.

"flinching from ones moral or statutory duty in regard to the safety or protection of others through fear or lack of moral fibre."

as for this ^ people have a "moral and statutory duty" to their partners, children, extended family, work etc. which one has a higher level in the hierarchy is not for anyone to define but the person themselves.

My husband frequently shouted at me in public and once on a train journey loudly and repeatedly threatened to kill me. People stared but even though it was an extreme situation I'm really glad no one ever intervened. It would have escalated the situation and somehow I would have been to blame and the result would have been worse than verbal. Out of control and violent people are dangerous and the only thing to do is call professional help .... although if he had started being physical i would have liked someone to pull him off. No stock answer, is there.

I remember a documentary on TV some time ago, where two little girls were used in an experiment whereby one at time they stood 'crying' in the street. Their mum was only feet away keeping an eye on them of course, and the cameraman was hidden. It was horrifying how many people just ignored them and stepped around and walked past. One was only about five. The experimenters counted over a hundred 'ignorers'. Obviously a man trying to help might be afraid of suspicion of being a paedophile, but loads and loads of women walked past too, including a mum with 2 children and a pushchair. In the end, it was an elderly woman who stopped and tried to help. She later said she had grandchildren herself and was very concerned. They interviewed some of the passers-by, who mostly shrugged and said they didn't want to get involved.
Does anyone remember this programme? I believe they did another one with a collapsed man (an actor), respectably dressed. No-one came to help him for several hours. I find this dreadfully sad.

Of course there's the tragic case of little James Bulger. Many people saw him with those two boys but did nothing. One woman stopped them but was told he 'was their brother and they were taking him home'. I suppose it would have been difficult to intervene after hearing that.

Dora..

i would define cowardice as flinching from ones moral or statutory duty in regard to the safety or protection of others through fear or lack of moral fibre.

That doesn't make sense!

So, what's an example of a statutory duty in your example?

Your reference to fear is ridiculous. So, an axe welding maniac is attacking someone. Someone else has already called the police, the police are on their way. Are you seriously saying that by getting the hell out of there, I would be a coward? Because I didn't confront the axe welding maniac through "fear".

You berk!

Helpme, that sounds horrendous. Are you still with him?

Enjoyingmycoffee1981 No, I left in August and have been getting better every day with the support of Mumsnetters ringing in my ears! Anyway, not to hi-jack the thread, I just think it is so difficult to know what you'd do. I have always taken the hand of a crying/lost child and many years ago jumped on the back of a man who had my husband on the ground while punching him unconscious. I fought him off and didn't think of the risk. I can't say if I would pull a man off a woman if he was beating her.... I probably would, but who can say? A woman went to the aid of my daughter once when bullies were pushing her about and got herself kicked repeatedly as a result. (Police called obvs.) I was so grateful to her and took her flowers. I'd like to think I would do the same but until you're confronted with the situation how can you know?

I would define cowardice as flinching from ones moral or statutory duty in regard to the safety or protection of others through fear or lack of moral fibre.

You know, it is possible to call the police and not put yourself in harms way, which still protects the innocent party and doesn't make more work for medical personnel or police. The two are not mutually exclusive. You'd probably even make an emergency personnel's day by not creating extra work for them.

I'd happily call the police if I saw a fight or someone in trouble, and I have. I would never intervene in a fight. Once a fight has broken out, all rationality has already gone out the window and emotions are flying high. It's very easy to become a target if two aggressive people see you as an aggressor (and they will). It's the same reason you don't break up a dog fight, you will get bit.

I certainly wouldn't even stick around if I had my child with me. Her safety comes above anyone else's. I have a statutory duty to my family, for the safety and protection of them first and foremost. Once she is out of harms way, I'd make a phone call to the proper authorities, but not a moment before.

I just want you all to know that if you collapse in the street I will stop and help even if you look drunk and dishevelled. I know you'd do the same for me.

I have never encountered/been involved in an accident or lost child etc where I have seen anyone walk by, usually so many people stop to help that they are being waved on.