to find onlookers infuriating.

[Unclearpath]

I'm still reeling from an earlier event, so my emotions may be running high.

I'm just so angry that so many unacceptable incidents occur in public and no one steps in to help.

I've just been followed back to my car and verbally abused while holding my child because I stood up to group of people- legally adults but clearly children- who kicked off and began screaming at a shop assistant- because she asked them not to eat another food chains food on their premises. The diner was sat under a sign that reiterated this. Not one other person stood up for her and the management, when finally arrived, did not do enough to protect his staff member as far as I'm concerned. I also let rip to him privately I his office after, I was disgusted. There were plenty of other people who just sat and gawped as this poor women cowered in the corner being aggressively shouted at.

Several people passed my child and I on the way back to the car- did one person stop to show support given the gang of loud and abusive people following us? Did they hell.

How can you just walk past it. I hate confrontation, I hate injustice even more. I've seen it so many times. Fights erupting and women being hit by their husbands for example. And yet no one helps. I understand sometimes it's not safe, so then call the bloody police at least.

Rant over.

On occasions I do intervene for example a gang of about 20 youths were picking on another youth in my street. I telephoned the police. The fact that in the end it became a fight between two individuals which I then tried to stop and then got verbally abused by the rest of the youths did not bother me as I grew up in a very tough part of South Wales. I even managed to take photos of those involved. However none of this would I have done if my dc was with me. Sometimes people stand around not helping because they think that someone else will intervene ( sad but proven fact). The fact that you intervened absolved them from doing anything to help.

op I totally get where your coming from and in the past I've intervened in situations but the last one I was involved with has made me very wary.

I was in a shop and the shop assistant noticed some teenage boys stealing. There was no security guard so she blocked there path while another shop worker phoned the police. They must have been around 15/16. When they finally realised she wasn't messing one off them punched her so hard in the face it split her skin from the middle of her forehead to her cheek. It was horrendous. I did intervene at that point and they ran out of the shop.

I've also intervened when in a night club a girl was hitting about the face of a young man, her friend bit me on the shoulder and the bouncer came flying through knocking me over a table slicing my legs on glass. I resulted in stitches in my leg and a tetanus shot sat in A&E .

It's a sad sad world where people feel frightened to stand up but you just never know the outcome in today's society.

It's the bystander effect though, everyone thinks someone else is going to do something.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda is fine after the fact, but at the time, only you can assess the risks with interfering or not.

Thanks long distance couldn't remember the name of the effect

I will always stand up for someone weaker than I am when they need it.

I hate this "Don't get involved" shite.

If we all got involved there'd be a lot less bother.

It does make me cross. Though you are right. You can't be mad over someone's fear. I just wish it was different.

I agree that if you see someone struggling, for example, unable to cross a busy road, wrestling a heavy buggy, carrying lots of shopping, you should help.

If people are being aggressive YOU DO NOT STEP IN. I have training in emergency rescue, sometimes involving aggression and even as a trained person I was told not to step in, not to get involved. By doing so you are only creating more potential victims and making the situation more complicated.

CALL THE POLICE. DO NOT INTERVENE.

You were incredibly irresponsible to step in when your child was with you. You first protect yourself and the vulnerable people you are responsible for, even if you are an emergency responder. You assess the situation, note the risks and then take action. You do not wade in.

You behaved very immaturely and could have escalated the situation into a tragedy. Step back, assess the situation, call the police.Help once the immediate danger has passed.

It is not true that "if we all got involved there'd be a lot less bother." Unfortunately there are people in the world who are not reasonable and who do not respond to well-meaning intervention from non-authority figures. They just lash out, without any thought for consequences.

Police are trained to deal with these people. Call them.

Well done OP!
I too am one of those people, so is DP!
My proudest moment was DP stopping a bloke from punching a woman in the face, and I have also had a go at a few people in my time.

If everyone looked the other way, no bully or dickhead would ever be dealt with. Sometimes you have to be the one to stand up!

I disagree that the 'onlookers' were 'spineless'

What actually happened OP? It sounds like you left the restaurant and were followed by shouting people through the streets and to your car, so the onlookers weren't actually 'onlookers', more just people you walked past.

I would not have intervened. If you were shouting back at them I definitely would not have intervened.

OP I was in that woman's situation at work a few weeks ago and would have appreciated someone, anyone, speaking up for me.

What's worse it that I work in a place where the customers involved were people I have known for many years.

One of them, who had had too much to drink, just snapped, and I was the one who bore the brunt of his aggression.

He snapped at me and just started shouting, swearing, banging things about and just screaming and ranting at me.

We were outside, in a small enclosed patio area, and I tried to get back inside to get away from him but one of his friends blocked the doorway and started shouting as well. He repeatedly blocked my way with his arm and pushed me back towards the other man.

So I walked the other way, towards a gate at the other end of the patio, to try and escape, but the man who was shouting abuse at me came at me with his fist raised to my face and I thought he was going to punch me. He was shouting a threat at me as he came at me.

I stopped dead and he picked up a chair and threw it at me.

At this point his friend disappeared so I was able to get back inside and ask for help.

What made it worse was, there were about ten other people sitting and watching all of this, including his girlfriend, and not one of them tried to stop him, not for his sake or for mine. As his friends, I think they could have intervened without risk to themselves, but they thought it was funny.

His girlfriend and another woman, who has known my family for twenty-five years, sat and laughed all the way through it and they thought it was hilarious when he threw the chair.

While I was trapped between the two men, both of them shouting, I was actually pleading with those women that I just wanted everyone to leave. They wouldn't go.

When they thought we were calling the police, the girlfriend started shouting abuse at me and my colleague and the other woman lied to cover up for the man who threw the chair at me.

Now the woman who was laughing is offended because a couple of days later, while I was with my husband, I pointed her out as one of the people who had watched the men shouting and who laughed when the first man threw the chair. Apparently she didn't like being looked at, yet she seems to think I shouldn't be upset at having a chair thrown at me by a customer because she's still trying to maintain he threw it 'near me' but not at me.

The only reason that chair didn't hit me is because I stopped moving and ducked.

I wouldn't expect someone to involve themselves if they were at risk of being harmed, or in your case if they had a child with them. But I've been out with DS before when he was in his pushchair and called the police from a safe distance when I saw a man screaming at and grabbing a woman who I think was his girlfriend, and then also attacking a man who stopped to help her. I stayed on the phone to the police giving them a description of everything that was happening until officers arrived to help.

I think that's possibly the best thing I could have done in the circumstances and I'd do it again without hesitating.

Well done OP, the world could do with more people like you, it would be a lot more pleasant for the rest of us. I'm another that can't help herself but step in, I hate injustice and get very frustrated when others just stand and gawp, not even snapping out of it and phoning the police, it's as if they're watching telly and don't feel it's real.

It's a fight or flight issue, when confronted with a situation you have those who's natural instinct is to fight and those who naturally will retreat.

Now I'm a fight person, that doesn't meant a literal physical action just "to get involved". I know that from previous dangerous experiences that I am unable to not react that way, I cannot just sit back.

But I don't begrudge anyone who's instinct is flight because it's just how were made up. Self preservation certainly is safer for that person.

Each situation is assessed and there a varying degrees of danger and factors that play a part but yeah I think YABU even though it would be nicer for all but not for self if everyone would fight for each other.

OP, you did the right thing, and until recently, most people would have done the same. Indeed, everyone I know in RL would have done the same. However, on MN there are a lot of people who are very afraid of lots if things, from answering their door when it's dark, to getting involved.

These may be legitimate fears, due to past experiences. I don't know people, so I couldn't say whether they are legitimate or not. But what I have seen, are more and more posts in Facebook with horror stories "women beware - someone tried to get into my car / steal my kids in Asda / flag me down and carjack me". I think only a tiny proportion are real, but they create a level of fear so that people are scared, and except the worst to happen, and maybe misread people's intentions.

I'd have come to your aid if I'd seen your situation, OP.

If I didn't have my daughter with me I would, and have, done similar things. But the thought of even arguing with a stranger and her getting upset because her mum was being shouted at just absolutely would stop me getting involved tbh. And that's without the prospect of the threat of violence.

Getting involved when you have a child with you means putting them at risk. And yes, while I want her to grow up with a sense of right and wrong, I'm sure she'd remember far more clearly the time her mum got decked by a stranger for interfering...

This is what I think of so called trained experts whose advice is don't get involved.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1565292/PCSOs-who-stood-by-as-boy-drowned-named.html

op Ive not looked at the link but I get the gist of it.

Have you ever tried to rescue some one that is drowning?

I'm a swimming coach and have my NPLQ (nationl pool life guard qualification. I also teach rookie lifeguard.

Twice year I go in to schools and talk about the dangers of water and also the dangers of attempting to rescue some one.

The freezing cold water, heavy water logged clothes (if your wearing jeans and coat your toast), currents, tides, waves,weeds, dirty water, grasping fighting frightened casualties,hypothermia are all reasons why you shouldn't get in because its very likely there will be two casualties.

I am a very strong swimmer and have struggled few times even in training. I have saved a child but because I felt I knew the risks and could protect us both. If it was an adult im not sure my thought process would be the same.

Many have a go heros have died. Its a very cavalier attitude to have to expect every one to risk there own lives for other people.

Ive just read it. Have you actually read it your self?

How do you know the PCSO could swim?

The inquest states that there would have been nothing they could have done anyway.

The blame did not lie with the PCSO. The blame lies firmly on the feet of who ever let these children swim in unsupervised dangerous water.

I'm broadly with you on bystanders OP, though clearly there are situations where getting stuck in isn't necessarily the best course of action (but other action is possible).

I recently spotted a mum just as she realised her daughter had run off. She asked people nearby if they had seen her (it was an outdoor christmas event) . No-one had and they just sat around staring at her. You could see she was really distressed and not quite sure what to do (she had another small child with her). I went over, offered to help, got a member of staff,,got a quick description and had a look round while the staff member got more info from her. The little girl turned up fairly quickly, but the whole thing was like a side show for those sat at nearby tables.

TBH what that is sheer laziness. There was no danger or fear involved in that.

Good on you, OP. The world needs more people like you.

I hate injustice
I'd have done same and always speak up for people in similar situations
Occasionally gets me into trouble or almost does, but I just don't think .. my blood boils and I have to say or do something .And normally I'm so shy!

It's a sad but too prevalent attitude not to get involved. We need to sometimes be a bit more self sufficient and not expect the police to come and rescue us from unpleasant behaviour.
There were two men brawling on the street outside a police station. I had my 8 year old daughter with me. I told her to stand well away and then went up to them and told them to stop fighting. There were onlookers filming and generally being amused. Once I intervened a couple of men came over to break the two apart and eventually the police came out and took the two into custody.
You can't just let people behave badly and just ignore it. It takes courage to do the right thing and the right thing is seldom the easiest thing. But don't just be apathetic and accept a wrong situation. Everyone can do something, but just standing around doing nothing is pathetic. We are teaching our children to be helpless victims. Cailindana's 'training' goes against every human instinct to protect and look after those who need our protection.

It's hard for me, to understand really. .talking about extreme circumstances. I can understand that there is a risk to your own life, and as mentioned before I'd never put anyone above my dd.. but I honestly in my heart would rather risk losing my own life, if there was a chance I could save someone else's.

Recently during some training I was involved in, I was told to leave a burning building immediately, than go upstairs and try to save the children. are you fucking kidding me?

I was sick to my stomach reading a news article recently about an elderly lady trapped underneath a bus. No body helped- people were FILMING it. What kind of world do we live in?!

Thank you to the posters who agree with me.

I understand and hear the voices which say otherwise, but personally I could not live my life being the person on the sidelines doing nothing.

Recently during some training I was involved in, I was told to leave a burning building immediately, than go upstairs and try to save the children. are you fucking kidding me?

That's because you are not a trained fire fighter. Going up to save them potentially makes you one more victim they need to fish out. That said, I don't seriously think a person could hear a child screaming and leave them.

As for your situation OP, it was irresponsible, dangerous, and frankly stupid. First you put yourself and your child in danger by confronting an aggressive group of people and escalating the situation. You didn't calm them down or make the situation better, you just ramped up the volume. Then you walked away and let them follow you back to your car, with your child. You put yourself and your child in a very vulnerable and unnecessary position that was perfectly avoidable.

The employee should have walked away to the back to disengage and called the police for disruptive patrons instead of allowing them to corner her like that. Really, employees need to be trained on when to call security or the police. Let the police handle it, they're trained to deal with disruptive people.

Personally, I would not intervene if I saw a woman being followed by a group of shouting people unless I saw she was in physical danger. I would have stopped to assess the situation and watch though to make sure it didn't get taken any further than shouting.

The vast majority of people will not intervene. Studies have found that even if you are in danger of losing your own life, most people still don't react. It's a known, psychological response to experiences outside the norm. A tiny minority will step in and often these people have been raised that way or trained in later life.

It is not spineless or cowardly, it's not the world going to the dogs, it isn't a terrible indictment on society. It's basic, human make up.

If you ever are in a situation where you need help and nobody is stepping in, then the quickest and most effective way to break the bystander effect is to look/point at an individual and give them a direct order. The onus will then be on them and it breaks the 'spell'.

I know it's sad and difficult and frightening but the world isn't populated by spineless cowards. Mostly, we're just wired that way. I don't like it actually. I'd like to say yes, I'd step in, I hate injustice, I couldn't stand by. But I know myself. I am not special. I am like the majority. I am trying to think myself out of it and promise myself I will try and step in, but on the rare occasion when it happens, I do freeze. I promise I'll keep trying though.