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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

i have decided that i really hate nurseries/preschools and I don't know what to do

107 replies

turquoiseseasandgoldensands · 03/12/2014 22:32

So, at 3.5 I finally send my son to a nursery/preschool, because he said he wanted to go, and he said he wanted to play with lots of children and because he was getting bored of me and I thought he needed more. I had been a SAHM and he hadn't been to nurseries or child care - and of course I had been told that I was being unfair not sending him to nursery since he was about 18 months and I had completely ignored that but at 3.5 he was definitely ready, intellectually and emotionally, to spend time away from me and he skipped into nursery the first day barely able to contain his excitement.

However. Since starting nursery (and we are on the second already, the first having been a nightmare, and both have "outstanding" rankings) the following has happened:

  • he is frequently stressed around the days he goes in
  • his behaviour has completely deteriorated
  • his verbal skills are worse - his speech isn't as clear or confident and he gets verb endings wrong whereas he didn't before
  • he appears to be learning very little
  • he used to be able to play really well, for long periods of time, but because of the usual approach of nurseries to time use of toys so that the children learn to "share" and the constant movement from one activity to another, he isn't able to get into the groove (so to speak) at nursery, and at home he hasn't been able to settle into the groove either and no longer seems to be able to concentrate on his activities for very long unless I am with him.

The nursery he is at thinks he is doing very well and that there are no problems whatsoever and that he is thriving. What???!!!

I have looked round a lot of nurseries and have asked and continue to ask a lot of indepth questions and I have a pretty clear idea about what goes on in the nurseries, most of them (all of them so far) and I am truly p*ed off. He wants to spend time with other children and is ready to learn in a structured environment to the extent it is age appropriate and he was so keen to be independent etc. This is what I want to. But there is nothing available that I can find and I feel he is being damaged where he is, which to be fair is a much better nursery than most.

OP posts:
EmbarrassedPossessed · 04/12/2014 14:54

Turquoise, you've answered your own question. You clearly don't think nurseries are suitable environments for any children. So don't send your child to one, find alternative childcare that you do agree with, or don't work until your child is of compulsory school age (although even then you might decide against school and home ed).

minipie · 04/12/2014 14:56

How often is he going OP and is it all day or just mornings?

If he is going say 3 mornings a week then that is 7.5 hours a week so still spending by far the majority of his time with you. If he's going more than this then why not try cutting down (rather than pulling out altogether)?

As many others have said, he's going to need to go into a social/structured situation at school (unless you HE). I see nursery school - at least a couple of mornings a week - as a warm up for this, which will make the transition easier come school age. I'd be interested to hear why you think the negative effects you're seeing won't happen in 6 months' time?

SolomanDaisy · 04/12/2014 15:00

It's difficult to know what development changes to attribute to nursery though, isn't it? I have a 3.5 year-old and I think it's a very emotional age and that comes out in different ways in different children. My DS is enormously confident and outgoing, but has definitely needed support to deal with other children's needs being as important as his. I see my job as giving him that base of confidence and secure attachment, but he needs a different environment to help him develop too. I'm very happy that he gets that (10 hours a week in a lovely Montessori preschool with highly trained and nurturing staff, in his second language).

I guess you need to decide whether you can meet his development needs better than any of the alternative environments available to you.

CharlesRyder · 04/12/2014 15:01

OP, I don't understand why you don't just take your child out of nursery?

askyfullofstars · 04/12/2014 15:10

OK I have to ask, why did you post to ask opinions when the only ones you seem to have any sort of positive acknowledgment for, are the ones that agree with you, even to the people trying to help with the verb endings thing (It is worth adding that I have checked the verb thing and in fact some children don't go through the phase, some skip it. My DC has been speaking in complex sentences for a while so I don't think he is going through it now)

After the first few points you only acknowledged the poster that agreed with you, and your posts seem to be littered with not so thinly veiled snipes at those of us who do use nurseries/preschools.

The old lady who lives down the road thinks that a parent should be present until the child is at least 5, not only for safety reasons but also for bonding reasons. There might be some wisdom in this

It is accepted by some experts that psychological damage can occur in preschools and nurseries

just in your last post.

Permanentlyexhausted · 04/12/2014 15:24

OP: Despite a number of very qualified posters explaining to you that your son's language 'regression' is in fact both normal and a progression, you have decided that your son is simply far too bright for that to possibly be the case and that he must just be copying to fit in.

Since you are worried about psychological damage, it may interest you to know that research shows parents who overvalue their children do them no favours and are, in fact, simply doing so to satisfy their own narcissistic tendencies. Let's hope you didn't give your child an unusual name - a surprisingly common trait amongst overvaluers!

As I said before, if you don't want to send your child to nursery, then don't. But your need to prove that all nurseries are the work of the devil and are damaging your son is pointless and unpleasant.

whitesandstorm · 04/12/2014 15:26

Sorry I can't remember the name of the documentary.

apotatoprintinapeartree · 04/12/2014 15:34

Hello OP

None of mine went to nursery pre school wraparound care, childminders and they are all fine. Two are grown ups now and managed the transition to school fine.
Two went all through school but dd stopped after y3 and became H.ed

Educational institutions don't suit all children, some are better off or equally well off without them.

I would try some play groups, parent and toddler groups or even check out your local H.ed groups, even if you are thinking of your dc going to school he could meet some friends in the meantime.

duplodon · 04/12/2014 15:51

Lotta, I recognise your caseload issues well, but I suppose I challenge the idea engagement issues are primarily about a lack of thought. I think they're more usually reflective of disenfranchisement, disadvantage and extreme stress.

I work with a colleague whose main role is in something called Multisystemic Therapy, which has many applications, but in our area is targeted at the hardest to reach families of teens who are persistent reoffenders. It's a behavioural therapy and she has to work very intensively with families, with a member of the team on a 24-7 on-call basis and they work across home, school and social settings. As such she does a lot of work in families who have long histories of non-engagement. She says in practice, the difference in everyday interactions in family homes in terms of how people interact is much less than we imagine but that there's far more stress, often related to poverty, with unpredictable outbursts and responsiveness and consistency can be lower, in part because of sort of persistent low level mental health issues or more accurately, poor levels of mental well-being. For this reason, outcomes in MST fall solely on the team providing therapy. No one is allowed to say 'well they just don't want to engage'. The team HAS to find a way to make them engage, and their outcomes, as a result, are second to none (though you'll recognise resourcing is the white rabbit here).

I do feel they are onto something in terms of the causes and foundations of engagement. I have seen first hand the impact of reduced mental health when I had PND, which was like a bolt from the blue. Looking back, it's almost hard to fathom the extent to which my thinking was not 'me', or how living with stress impacted on my own thouhhts, feelings and behaviours as a parent. However, I had SO much privilege in terms of my background, education and in how I went about securing services for myself that it was a mere glimpse into what families face. I did a PND group with women that once I would have been advising on how to interact with THEIR babies. I sat with an Occup Therapist who talked to me about how to interact with mine. It was simultaneously both the most soul-destroying and eye opening experience of my whole life and it radically altered my perception of the barriers to engagement I had long perceived differently.

I am no longer even slightly surprised that parents fail to engage with many services, not least adult-child interaction therapies. It feels like someone is judging your very soul, it's almost wirelessly awful and I say this as someone without any of the barriers faced by many hard-to-reach families. I understood the process. I could read. I had a faith in the culture of therapy. The people offering it to me were 'people like me' in terms or class, culture and background.

While I do feel you are right in your comment about how 'overthinking' can be used in debate to silence and I understand your point better now having looked back at the conversation, I think that as a profession sometimes we have a poor understanding of the broader interaction of thoughts, feelings, experiences and behaviours and of the mechanisms of changing human behaviour, despite having valuable skills and knowledge to impart.

I was amazed to learn in my own CBT treatment, for example, of the ways in which rumination (or overthinking) and reassurance seeking can exacerbate and maintain anxiety, while avoidance of appointments with professionals was recognised as a potential symptom of clinical anxiety. I had never heard of this in my career, even though paradoxically I'd done a lot of training and in service on anxiety and CBT in my autism role.

I think that endless ruminative research and discussion on decisions about, say, childcare can be unproductive, and that most parents need to be supported to listen to and trust their instincts on what works best for their families. This should not imply that there shouldn't be due thought and research put into that where possible, but look at the suffering and ire caused by endless poring over 'research' based parenting.

Bottom line, OP? You don't feel comfortable with this setting for your son at this time. The verb ending stuff is just a red herring. You don't feel comfortable and you don't need, in this instance, a lot of research to make a decision for you, because your reasoning is somewhat emotional, and emotions can't be solved with recourse to scientific literature. My advice to you as a parent (not a professional) would be to throw all reason aside, then set aside a chunk of quiet time when your child is in bed to just sit, breathe and notice your thoughts and feelings about this issue as they arise. Instead of getting tangled up in any one line of thought, imagine each thought can only be one sentence long, 'listen' to it and let it go, perhaps labelling feelings or atmospheres that arise with one word or a short phrase - worry, judgement, concern, uncertainty, discomfort, unease, not in line with your views/values etc. I'd do this with an open mind, you might notice some new information about what you think in approaching the issue in this way. I read once that 'the stance to take is one of open awareness, like a butterfly a lighting on a leaf, rather than examining your thoughts with a laser sharp focus'. It's a great technique for decision-making and often very illuminating. I think you already know whAt you want to do here.

naty1 · 04/12/2014 15:53

Dd started nursery at 13m. She really didnt like it so i took her out. Various reasons - nappy not being changed very quickly, wandering around crying, unsettled at home, diarrheoa and 2 vomiting within 2 months.
Though she could say words apparently never spoke there.
I have noticed they copy the bad grammar (from anyone) and DD is generally pretty accurate. It would be silly to say its not possible ops child is copying this. It could be developmental but if they are encouraged to go to improve language development then they will also pick up some not so good language use.
I agree though that now at 3.5 he will only experience the same downsides when he starts school, though i guess he may not start till 5. And at least he will be used to the environment and to not having the person in charge's attention.
With the playing by himself i imagine now he wants other kids to play with. My 2.5 yr old plays happily for ages with playdoh, kitchen etc and actually so do most at the playgroups i go to.

duplodon · 04/12/2014 15:53

Oops. Should have chunked this into too. And wirelessly should be wordlessly.

MiaowTheCat · 04/12/2014 15:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

duplodon · 04/12/2014 16:10

'it is worth adding that I have checked the verb thing and in fact some children don't go through the phase, some skip it. My DC has been speaking in complex sentences for a while so I don't think he is going through it now'

This, you see, is a bit ruminative. The probability of overregularised endings in a 3.5 year old who has just started nursery being developmental is overwhelmingly stacked towards your son just being one of the overwhelming majority of young children who go through this phase. You are overestimating the possibility there is an alternative reason and giving explanations which are not relevant. My son is 2 years and 3 months and is speaking in complex sentences such as 'I feel sad you didn't get me Hulk costume mummy' but I know some of this is learned chunking and he will go through apparent regression to shorter, simpler sentences over the next year and a half. My five year old occasionally overregularises but has well-developed language for his age.

You don't feel comfortable and you want a research based decision that removes all uncertainty about what to do next, that's what I hear. Yet I also hear that you have examined evidence to support reasons for your discomfort, found positive evidence and want to remove him. So do that.

Siennasun · 04/12/2014 16:23

Not sure if the op is genuine. What parent would continue sending her child to a nursery that she felt was "damaging" to both his development and self-esteem when being a sahm you have no need to do so?? Hmm

Assuming this isn't a wind up you seem to have a limited understanding of a lot of the points you are trying to make. You are making lots of sweeping generalisations and presenting them as facts. You will always find experts, or in your case the old lady who lives down your road to support any theory.

Lots of pp have explained very well why your child has started making errors with verb endings but you've chosen to disregard all of that because your child is far too special to be following typical patterns of language development so it must be the fault of evil nursery and the influence of the inferior children that go there.

You don't have to send him to nursery, so don't send him. This is a non-problem.

Lottapianos · 04/12/2014 16:24

'though you'll recognise resourcing is the white rabbit here'

Indeed! Multisystemic Therapy sounds fascinating, and must be incredibly challenging but also very rewarding when you have a breakthrough with families who had previously been reluctant to engage. However, I can't imagine the government ever coughing up the necessary funding to make it as widely possible as it should be. I work for the NHS - I'm currently sitting in an office where we are running out of paper, haven't had a working photocopier since March, and am co-managing a caseload of nearly 3000 children who have the services of just two full time SLTs. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. We really are just firefighting rather than delivering a quality service, and if I'm honest, I've pretty much given up hope that services will ever be what families need them to be.

Thank you for sharing your experience as a parent who had PND. I hope things are better for you now. I think your advice to OP about managing her thoughts (learned from your CBT sessions?) is excellent.

Greengrow · 04/12/2014 16:41

Don't send him if you don't want to. Our children had a full time nanny and then from age 3 she would take them to morning nursery school until they started big school. We both worked full time. That worked very well indeed. I recommend it.

soverylucky · 04/12/2014 16:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

leedy · 04/12/2014 16:54

The source for the "nurseries cause irreperable psychological harm" info isn't Oliver Sodding James, is it?

blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2010/05/10/does-oliver-james-damage-the-brain/#.VICRT3VtPUY

duplodon · 04/12/2014 17:02

Lottapianos, the advice is more mindfulness based. I'm an NHS bod too, but on Mat Leave with my third (no PND etc). I had an excellent service from the NHS, with 30 CBT sessions over two years spanning from my second son being ten days old to my final review when my third was three months. I was so, so lucky as these services have been rationalized in so many places. I fear today's tragedy possibly reflects these sorts of funding cuts as the poor woman should probably have had access to a Mother and Baby Unit, which were heavily cut in recent years.

I've a place on CBT postgraduate course and a Mindfulness one for next September, though I am mainly interested in developing these skills for use in speech therapy services, particularly older children and adolescents with SLI/autism/stammering, though I am interested when I have enough distance in developing skills in supporting families like mine as a peer supporter too.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 04/12/2014 17:13

lotta and duplod it's actually making me really sad to read your discussion. You're obviously both incredibly bright, well-trained and passionate about what you do, then to read you've a caseload of 3,000 in your team... Sad it must be impossible to give families the help they need and so frustrating because you obviously want to do it!

Flowers for what you both!

LucyLastik · 04/12/2014 17:15

Your "experience" is based on one child and 2 nurseries. You hate it so much, just take him out. So fed up of nursery bashing on MN

MaryWestmacott · 04/12/2014 17:20

OP - were you hoping for people to link to information that would show to others that you are right to think nurseries aren't right for children.

However, if you aren't, and genuinely want to find a solution that doesn't involve keeping your DS isolated until school, look at pre-schools of prep schools. Most won't insist on you signing up for schooling there and will let you use your 15 hours, although they will be more top up costs.

Groovee · 04/12/2014 17:26

I'm still interested the reasons why staff went into working in nurseries!

As an EYP, I love working with children, watching their little sponge brains learning through play without realising that they are doing "work" for learning.

If you don't feel nursery is good for your child, then take him out. What will you be doing for schooling?

Goldmandra · 04/12/2014 17:54

There is good child care out there where they work hard to replicate the home environment and support positive carer/child attachments but it's hard work and, with the best will in the world, you can't give a toddler more positive interaction when he is one of several in your care, than most loving, engaged and enthusiastic parents can at home. There is also a fair amount of mediocre child care where they don't reflect on their practice or try particularly hard to meet individual needs and interests and I know from working in some of them that really conscientious, loving, intelligent parents can be easily taken in. Before anyone lays into me, I did do something about it, every time.

Good quality childcare is better than being at home for some children but those who stay at home with lots of affection, one to one attention, conversations and opportunities for exploration are not missing out by any stretch of the imagination.

Take your son out of this nursery and find some group activities you can take him to instead.

If noticing the effect that several hours a week in someone else's care is having on your child and considering whether to make changes is overthinking things, I am a chronic overthinker and proud to be one.

furcoatbigknickers · 04/12/2014 17:56

I think home schooling may suit you... I see issues ahead.

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