i have decided that i really hate nurseries/preschools and I don't know what to do

[turquoiseseasandgoldensands]

So, at 3.5 I finally send my son to a nursery/preschool, because he said he wanted to go, and he said he wanted to play with lots of children and because he was getting bored of me and I thought he needed more. I had been a SAHM and he hadn't been to nurseries or child care - and of course I had been told that I was being unfair not sending him to nursery since he was about 18 months and I had completely ignored that but at 3.5 he was definitely ready, intellectually and emotionally, to spend time away from me and he skipped into nursery the first day barely able to contain his excitement.

However. Since starting nursery (and we are on the second already, the first having been a nightmare, and both have "outstanding" rankings) the following has happened:

• he is frequently stressed around the days he goes in
• his behaviour has completely deteriorated
• his verbal skills are worse - his speech isn't as clear or confident and he gets verb endings wrong whereas he didn't before
• he appears to be learning very little
• he used to be able to play really well, for long periods of time, but because of the usual approach of nurseries to time use of toys so that the children learn to "share" and the constant movement from one activity to another, he isn't able to get into the groove (so to speak) at nursery, and at home he hasn't been able to settle into the groove either and no longer seems to be able to concentrate on his activities for very long unless I am with him.

The nursery he is at thinks he is doing very well and that there are no problems whatsoever and that he is thriving. What???!!!

I have looked round a lot of nurseries and have asked and continue to ask a lot of indepth questions and I have a pretty clear idea about what goes on in the nurseries, most of them (all of them so far) and I am truly p*ed off. He wants to spend time with other children and is ready to learn in a structured environment to the extent it is age appropriate and he was so keen to be independent etc. This is what I want to. But there is nothing available that I can find and I feel he is being damaged where he is, which to be fair is a much better nursery than most.

OP - you have my sympathy! My DD went to nursery (French école maternelle) at 2.10 (normal starting point) and I found the first year pretty useless. She coped OK but was shattered every afternoon (she did mornings only) and I don't think she had much fun. It was more a case of acclimatisation.

Because hopenope some awful mother's actually have to work, and in some areas the nursery provision is better than the childminders that have space

I home educate. I didn't have any choice but it's turned out to be the best thing for my ds. I think people are suspicious of "outside of the norm" so will really push nursery and try to counter your concerns, I can see it greatly on this thread. At his age there will be home education groups you can start looking at that are a lot less stressful and more flexible than mainstream pre schools and nurseries. Some children don't suit nursery, some children will adapt, some won't but there are other choices .

Definetely look into the Montessori approach, it sounds like it would be a good fit

I think a smaller group setting would suit him better.

However just a tiny friendly bit of advice as you posted, don't overthink things too much as he is just a baby.

Montessori but a proper one not one that describes its self as child care.

Could you do a preschool co-op with some likeminded parents? A friend of mine did this with her 2-year old. She wanted him to have some preschool experience with children his own age but had a limited budget to pay for nursery so she and 3 other SAHMs in our circle teamed up for a preschool co-op.

They met up 2 mornings a week in each other's houses and followed a home-schooling preschool curriculum- crafts, outdoor play, sensory play etc. The advantage was thst it was no cost to them and they were in full control of the setting. Might be an idea for you if you know other SAHMs whose children aren't really enjoying preschool.

I think that if you don't want to send him to nursery school then don't because you don't have to, but please read some more about child development. Other posters and I advised you about verb endings but you still said you weren't sure if you were wrong. Also, when a young child is asked 'why' and then supplied with an answer they will agree to the answer you have given them because they don't really understand 'why'. Actually, it's called asking a leading question and shouldn't be done with anyone of any age really because they may either agree because they want to please you with what they see as the 'correct' answer or because it is an easier answer than the real one which might be too painful. Asking leading questions can be very damaging.

OP, how long has he been going? My DS started preschool in September and for about three weeks his behaviour at home really deteriorated. He was completely exhausted but started waking every night and getting up really early. He was too tired to do much in the afternoons and weekends revolved around trying to get him to nap and have an early night.

Nursery reported that he was fine and enjoying himself and I am sure that he was just the effort that it took meant that there was nothing left for home and he was a little challenging! He also wanted my attention constantly.

I was really tempted to take him out but decided to stick with it. He is much more settled now, sleeps better and is back to my cheery little boy. He loves going, has made some little friends and delights in showing me little songs or actions he has learnt whilst there. I am so pleased we stuck with it.

you made some sweeping generalisations there about nurseries and the staff. Obviously there are some bad nurseries out there but there are also some very, very good ones. I suppose in the end you get what you pay for. Did you ask if all the staff have qualifications as early years officers? That makes a massive difference to their approach and understanding of child development.

I have to say my experience and my child's experience of nursery was vastly different to yours. However, the nursery my DD attended only employed those with early years qualifications. The staff were, on the whole, knowledgeable, helpful, professional and passionate about their role and their charges. DD's key worker was a great source of knowledge and support when dealing with several normal developmental challenges that we struggled through.

I can honestly say that my experience of early years officers has been on the whole very positive and I think that it is a profession that is unrecognised financially and in its importance.

TBH OP just as I have my own agenda here - to support and promote the work of early years officers - I get the feeling that you do too. If you want to keep your child with you then that's fine but I think you may have to re-assess your knowledge of child development. Good luck whatever you decide.

I think you need to consider that he's ready to learn to be something other than mummy's perfect little boy - and that it's important that he does so.

That's going to involve copying the speech of people who aren't you. It's also going to involve learning to play in groups (including dropping solo play when something more exciting comes up), and to cope in a more formal situation where he doesn't always get to choose what to do or for how long. And as he's discovering these things, it'll involve him trying things at home which you consider to be a regression. You need to realise that "independent" means "not always making the choices you want him to make."

He'll get the hang soon enough of nursery working one way and his home environment working another.

At your son's age, mine was quiet, happy to concentrate for hours on one thing, obsessed with spelling and grammar, preferred sitting in the corner with a book to anything else - total dream to any busy mother. Best thing I ever did for him was to send him to playgroup to learn to interact with kids who enjoyed running around, making a mess, playing together and so on.

I think you're making a lot of sweeping generalisations about nurseries and nursery staff.

You found out why many staff went into work at the nurseries? What on earth is that meant to mean?

I've never had this problem. DS has been to nursery and is now at preschool (because you know, I have to work) and loves it. Of course he's changed in that time, he's much more confident and it's great that he's learning to interact with other children.

It's not uncommon for children going through a developmental change in one area to become a little 'uneasy' at times.
In this specific situation he has been solely engaging with you and you there. Now he has encountered a range of different attitudes and personalities on his own terms. It sounds as though he's trying out different 'ways of being him'.

I wish I hadn't sent DD1 so early or had the confidence to take her out of nursery.

She went at 2.5 - two mornings a week so she'd be ready for nursery week after she turned 3. She didn't really enjoy her nursery year - she absolutely thrived in reception - she a late summer DC.

I also think the preschool/nursury put pressure on with toilet training with older two which I think cause more problems than necessary - my older two were late developers there but completely ready by school age - youngest was different self trained at 2.5.

My other two DC were different they were very much ready for more interaction and more structured environment - though they also went to a different nursery - one attached to the school they later attended.

I did think about taking her out of nursery - but everyone talked me out of it and I had two younger DC so already felt guilty that she wasn't getting enough time with me and when we went out to toddler groups she was the oldest one as all the others were at nursery.

The language thing is also most certainly developmental - but if you think your DC not happy I'd look what other options you have.

Just another one to reassure you about the verb thing. I studied child language development at uni and it's definitely a way they're showing that they're actually learning the underlying rules of grammar rather than just remembering each word as a learned chunk, if that makes sense? So from that sense he's doing well!

OP, not sure if this is relevant to you or not, but I sent my DC at the same age to the nursery at a local Prep School. The staff were very well qualified and there was a fabulous outdoor space and wonderful facilities. It was wellies and overalls for outdoor play everyday and amazing themed weeks etc. They only ever went part-time though, to get them used to what school had in store for them.

I think your hatred of nurseries and preschools is colouring your views here. I doubt very much your son is being "damaged".

I'm a SAHM and my DD has just started preschool at 3. Just two sessions a week (6 hours). I don't particularly want her to do any more, so she won't.

You don't have to send your son at all if you don't want to, but maybe you have to think more deeply about why you feel so awful about sending him in the first place.

I remember watching a documentary earlier this year about nurserys and how on the whole children that didnt go fared better in all aspects of development than those that did.

I'm an Early Years SLT and everyone is right about the verb endings!

You have had loads of advice on here but I just had to come on to say please ignore this:
'However just a tiny friendly bit of advice as you posted, don't overthink things too much as he is just a baby'

A 3 year old is most definitely not a baby. Giving lots of thought to his development is what any parent should be doing. That would also apply if he was 'just' a baby.

And you are not 'overthinking' anything, just trying to figure out what might be best for your child. There's no such thing as 'overthinking' anyway, its just thinking and I wish that more parents did a lot more of it

Lottapianos, I have to disagree most vehemently with you. I am a Highly Specialist SLT (SLI and ASD from early years through to secondary) and I have developed a specialist interest in adult-child interaction in the early years, with a specific interest in maternal mental health. This area of interest arose out of my own experiences with PND.

Thinking about development in itself does not support it. Overthinking, which might be termed ruminating or non-productive worry, can absolutely be a barrier. Where you find yourself viewing normal development of language as a regression, that interpretation could - if left unchecked - lead to a parent 'testing' and 'checking' development in a way that ends up being a barrier to natural communication. I'm almost certain you'll have seen this with worried parents of children who are genuinely struggling to communicate: 'what's this? What's this? What's this?'. This is why non-directive approaches are so heavily focused on in the early years.

In mental health services, there's a phenomenon in early attachment where a parent can excessively chase eye contact with a baby when they are sending cues they need a break. I know despite ALL my training and theoretical knowledge and critical thinking ability blah blah I did this. I knew it and yet I still did it. Why?

Dr. Seuss once said about Christmas 'maybe Christmas doesn't come from a store, maybe just maybe Christmas means something more'. In the same way, all the knowledge in the world about development doesn't make good adult-child interaction happen because it's so much more than a set of discrete behaviours: it's a relationship, with all the complications and vulnerabilities that entails. Thinking about development excessively can be a considerable source of worry and stress. What's more important, arguably, is that you have a non-judgemental, moment to moment awareness of where your child is at and can respond reciprocally on the basis of this awareness, setting aside thoughts of what your child should or shouldn't be doing.

Where there are negative interpretations of a child's learning or communication that can be easily changed through parent information, that's a powerful use of EDUCATION to effect change. Yet think about what the research tells us about positive adult-child interactions in the early years: it's not about 'thinking' about this at all, but following your child's lead, waiting, observing and responding based on what your child does, seeing the positives, having positive, playful shared joint experiences. It's emphatically not about endless wondering if your child is communicating 'properly' or 'enough' or concerning yourself with whether the environment they are in is 'perfect'. It's about meeting your child as a little person, growing and developing day by day and making conscious, aware choices proceeding from your child. It seems to me parents are more and more given the idea they should be assessing their child and speaking about their development as though they were writing a report. Personally, I don't think this is supportive of either children or parents.

and this is why I bloody love mumsnet. what a varied panel of responses. where else could you get this breadth of discussion? (sorry, OP, sidetracking slightly).

duplodon, most of the parents I work with are worryingly disengaged from their child, and are not at all motivated to learn or change their interaction styles, so I accept that this experience is influencing my position. Among many parents I work with, there is a resistance to information, to education, to reflection and an undervaluing of the huge role that parents have to play in their child's development. The comment I quoted seemed to trivialise the OP's level of concern and interest in her child and I wanted to challenge it.

I really strongly resist the idea of 'overthinking' - in my experience, it used to shut down debate and conversation and exploration of idea. I do recognise the examples you give about parents who constantly question their child, and I strongly believe that unhelpful and directive approches like this can be changed (if parents are willing to engage) through educating and supporting parents. All of that involves training, thinking, reflection, and monitoring of your own behaviour. You are right in that interaction should be natural and responsive, but parents and professionals need to put a lot of thought into that process in order to get there!

Don't suppose you can remember the name of the documentary, whiteandstorm?

Duplodon, I wasn't overthinking. I agree with your final para but just as some parents might be making mistakes, so are some nurseries and childminders.

It is worth adding that I have checked the verb thing and in fact some children don't go through the phase, some skip it. My DC has been speaking in complex sentences for a while so I don't think he is going through it now, more likely he is copying to fit in. Thinking about it though the key thing about the verbal problem is not the verb endings, but the fact that although he is capable of talking about things including things that make him upset, more recently he has been not talking and I have had to spend time with tlc before he has gone back to talking - like he had been disempowered or something. That is what I am worried about.

I am not the only person who is concerned about nurseries (sweeping generalisation accepted) and I have read articles by psychologists who say the same thing. I am evidently not an expert in this area but I can and should question if things I see in nurseries seem inappropriate and are not meeting the expectations of parents and so should everyone, whether or not experts. The nurseries hold themselves out as experts and as such should accept questioning and be able to respond and discuss readily.

As for the agenda comment from theeternalstudent, I hear what you say but possibly you should consider whether your agenda and support is in favour of the officers at the detriment of the children?

It is accepted by some experts that psychological damage can occur in preschools and nurseries, in fact, so the discussion about nursery vs mothers being present is valid and important. It should not be assumed that there is (a) overthinking or (b) a refusal of the mother to let go (read my final para of my OP!)

The old lady who lives down the road thinks that a parent should be present until the child is at least 5, not only for safety reasons but also for bonding reasons. There might be some wisdom in this.

At 3 a child's brain is still being wired up and what they learn at this age will affect how intelligent, emotionally intelligent, secure, confident, interesting and interested, able to follow ambitions, etc etc for the rest of their lives. I don't think some of the nurseries are aware of this or meeting the needs.

Then why on earth did you send him to nursery? You clearly don't support it or think it's beneficial for small children. It's not compulsory, take him out.