To think that the school is jumping the gun?

[AdorableMisfit]

My daughter turned four at the end of June, started Reception class in September. She was never in formal education before she went to school, as due to childcare issues we couldn't take advantage of the 15 hours free nursery education (we live in a part of the country where the Council forces you to send your child to a school nursery 2.5 hours per day, 5 days a week, rather than letting you choose how to use the 15 free hours, so it just wasn't possible for us to fit it around our work and her paid nursery place).

We met with our daughter's teacher at a parents evening just before the half term holiday, so in the latter part of October. She told us then that DD was a bit disruptive, not always following instructions and generally not very good at sitting still and listening. I told the teacher that I put that down to her basicallly being new to all this school stuff and not being used to the formal educational setting and also, you know, due to being four years old. I know other four year olds who behave in much the same way. The teacher suggested that she introduce a sticker chart to try to encourage our DD to behave in class, which I thought was a good idea as she responded well to a sticker chart for potty training when smaller.

I work full time and DD goes to breakfast club and after school club, so I haven't seen the teacher since, but she has my mobile number and email address. Fast forward to today, some 5 weeks later. I've not seen any trace of the suggested sticker chart, nor have I had any more communication from the teacher about my daughter's behaviour, so I assumed that things were improving as I'd heard nothing to the contrary.

Then today, out of the blue, I got a phone call from the school nurse, saying she wants to refer my daughter to a paediatrician for assessment as they are concerned about her behaviour, because she doesn't listen and follow instructions very well, and it's hard to keep her "on task" when they want her to do something. She also said that she's been told by the teacher that my daughter will start randomly crying in class for no apparent reason (rather than crying because she doesn't get her own way, or something). This is not something the school has ever mentioned to me.

I'm absolutely fuming. Surely it's not unreasonable of me to expect that the teacher should have contacted me sooner if she had such serious concerns about DD's behaviour that she was considering contacting a medical professional about it? And surely if they are worried about my daughter's mood they should have talked to me about that before getting a nurse involved?

I have had absolutely no concerns about DD's behaviour at home. Yes, she's not very good at focusing on things she's not interested in, and no, she's not very good at listening and following instructions, but most other four year olds I know are exactly the same. It's not like she's incapable of sitting down and listening at all - she will happily sit and listen to me reading her book after book, and she can snuggle up on the sofa with me and watch an entire Disney movie. She is only four, and I'm sure she will get better at listening to her teacher with time.

AIBU to think that the school is trying to make a medical issue out of something which is completely normal behaviour?

Ps. I agreed to the referral to the paediatrician, just in case, as there's a 6 month waiting list.

I don't think anyone was "trashing" her, were they? I admit that I think (and I said) that a working schedule which means that neither parent can get to an important meeting about a 4 year old for a month does not strike me as being sustainable, and I suggested that they might need to think about how they were going to deal with the demands of a school age child in the future- but that isn't "trashing". Sometimes people need a reality check. And this is a good place to have one, surely?

I would much prefer that no one, no other mother, would tell the OP she is a bad mother 'because she can't spare an hour of her work time to go and see the teacher' at 3.30 pm so right in the middle of the afternoon which means that she is just losing her whole afternoon.

OP if you get back to this thread
The culture us in the UK is such that primary schools expect parents of rather mothers not to work or work sort time with very flexible jobs. Unfortunately you will find again and again that you will be asked to fine and pick up dd at X location at4.00pm rather than at school or that the dcs will be back from The school trip at 4.30pm (arriving actually at 5.00) even though a CM is normally Picking up and can't possibly be there at that time. And teachers are so used that mum is picking up at least some if the time that it's the one communication system in place. if you aren't put I. The 'do not care' category because you haven't talked to them

Having said that, yes emails are the best and you do need to ask the teacher for an email Address. They normally all have one with the school anyway.
I wouldn't worry too much re the referral as such. It will take a long time to come through, and if you are right, will go nowhere but at least you and the teacher will know it's the case.

I would strongly ask the teacher to let you what has been out in place, to let you know how dd is doing (at my school they still had some home school book at that age so they might be a way to keep you informed on a more regular basis)

Ask them too what they think you could do. Nice ego stroking but also cod be really helpful for your dd.
And try and come up with some suggestions of what you can do too to support her/the teacher.

Hi OP - another PO here :)

I can see how hard it is to get out to see teacher etc - is your SPO not the helpful sort? I am wondering if the special leave policy would help you - in my area it applies to carers of children with SEN etc. So perhaps your daughter being assessed would fit, and so you can be released for an afternoon to meet the teacher? I know what you mean re no cover for caseload and psr deadlines etc but remember, if you broke your leg and were off for weeks, it would be covered!

Good luck x

Children barely notice a child who goes out for 1 to 1 sessions. What they do notice is a child who is constantly making them wait for their next activity by not listening like they themselves have managed to do. Low-level disruption in a classroom is the worst!

When posters talk about reception classes being 'formal', they're really only an extension of nursery but with fewer members of staff so expectations of behaviour and independence are higher. Honestly 4 year olds don't experience the Early Years curriculum by sitting at tables with their heads down, not making a sound!

My dc1 got an iep out of the blue in his school bag third wk of reception term. Complete shock as nothing mentioned, didn't know what an iep was. Iv learned iv got to keep on top of the school as they don't communicate well with me. I'm lucky to.work pt but found 8.45 pre arranged phone calls work well teacher and senco to keep up to date. In my dc school it takes 3 years to get referal to ed psych and they need at least three semester of evidence so that's why they start early

I think that you are not being unreasonable in expecting better communication from the teacher.
However I think that you should understand that the teacher has more experience of 4 year olds than you do. Refering her will not have been done suddenly and on a whim but after the input of other teachers and the SENCO.

I know many children who have needed to be referred early on but getting through the red tape can take ages.

Wow, I can't believe how many people have taken the time to respond to this. I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner, I was just too tired last night after only getting 3 hours sleep the night before due to lying awake worrying about this.

I don't have the time to respond to you all individually so I'll try to address some of the questions which have come up over & over again. First though, I just want to say thanks to those of you who've been sticking up for me over the working hours thing (e.g. AliceinWinterWonderland, TheFriar) because it's not as easy as some of you think to get a reduction in working hours, even if it was financially viable. We're incredibly short staffed where I work and I very much doubt my employer would let me cut back my hours. We've already lost two full time members of staff in my team - one just went on maternity leave and there is literally no trained member of staff (training takes two years) to replace them, and another person's gone off on long term sick with stress due to the insane workloads.

I'm also very grateful to all of you who have shared stories about your own children, and to those of you who work in education who have shared some useful insights. Some people seemed offended that I'm reluctant to have a label put on my daughter. As I said, I'm just worried about her being singled out as different and getting picked on. I remember having a boy with SEN in my class as a child and he was mercilessly bullied by a lot of the other kids for being "a retard" and all sorts of other horrible names. OK, that was in the 80s and some of you suggested that times are more enlightened now, but I really don't think that's true. A friend of mine has a nine year old son with ADHD and ASD and he tried to hang himself at school because his classmates were so horrible to him for being different. So perhaps you can understand why I'm concerned about my daughter being diagnosed. But obviously, if there IS a problem, it's better to know so she can get support. A lot of people have told me to agree to the referral. If you read the original post properly you will see that I already did this, because of course it's better to be safe than sorry and the waiting list for an appointment is long.

Islander79 - nice to meet another PO here. My SPO is actually a very helpful sort, but I haven't had a chance to speak to her because she's so overworked herself I've only seen her in passing this week, she was walking into the officce as I was walking to my car to drive to a prison an hour and a half away. She isn't just the manager for my team, she also chairs MAPPA meetings and DV Marac on a weekly basis, which take most of a day each, and she attends meetings with outside agencies e.g. the LCSB, a forum on human trafficking, and that sort of thing. But even if she wanted to help, there's nobody who could do my work for me while I left early, so I'd just be creating more stress for another day. As I said a few pages back, the timing of this is just awful, becuase I've got deadlines that can't be moved (PSRs, a parole report) and will also lose several days in the office next week as I've already had to book special leave for a funeral abroad. Under more "normal" circumstances I would probably be able to jig things around so I could leave early one day, but it's just not possible in the next two weeks and then the Christmas holidays start.

A few people have asked about DDs father - my husband. He is on the scene, but he also works full time, sometimes six days a week, on a shift basis. This week he's working Mon - Saturday. He's checked his rota and next week he happens to have a day off on Thursday (11th) and he's said he will go to the school to try to speak to the teacher then, but we don't know if she will be available to talk to him as she has not responded to my email. The lack of communication from the school makes me so angry, much more so than the suggestion that there may be a problem with DD, because as some of you have said, the school has obviously got much more experience of 4 year olds than I do. I'm just absolutely incensed that they didn't even ATTEMPT to contact me to talk about these concerns before they spoke to the school nurse.

Lots of people have said I have to make myself available to talk to the teacher. Again if you read back a bit, you will notice that I made a suggestion in my email that I could meet with the teacher after the class Christmas concert which is the week after next, if that suits her, but again she hasn't yet responded so I don't know if that's suitable for her. I also asked in my email that she advise me what would be a good time of day to telephone her (as I obviously don't want to ring and disturb her in the middle of class) but again, I've had no response as yet. Admittedly I was out of the office yesterday, so if she's replied to my work email, it may be waiting for me when I get into the office this morning.

A few people have suggested that perhaps the teacher did try to talk to me by I didn't listen, which is absolutely not true. She said nothing at all to suggest she was so concerned about DD she'd need to take it further Someone suggested she was using some kind of "teacher speak" or code, and surely I can't be the only one who thinks that if that's the case, it's totally unacceptable? She should say what she means, and if she thinks there's a problem with DD's behaviour she shouldn't say "She's beginning to settle", because to me that means that things are calming down, not that they are getting worse. "DD sometimes needs reminding to follow rules and routines" does NOT equate "DD has serious behaviour problems" in plain English. I mean, what child doesn't need reminding of the rules now and then?!! If the teacher thinks DD has serious behaviour problems, she should say so instead of giving us the impression (us being myself and my British born and bred husband, who is as furious about this lack of communication and clarity as I am) that things are going in the right direction.

Even if the teacher doesn't have time/access to email, or even the capacity to make a brief phone call to us, she could have popped a little note in DD's bag to say "please get in touch, I need to talk to you about DD's behaviour", but she has not done so, which is why we assumed that things must be improving - because she DID say things were "beginning to settle"! My husband also said that he has passed her in the school lobby on occasion in the mornings over the past few weeks as he was dropping DD to breakfast club, and she's said "good morning" and carried on walking. If she was THAT concerned about DD, surely she could have said to him then "excuse me Mr Misfit, could you spare a few moments to talk about DD," or something.

Lots of you asked how I know there's no sticker chart and the answer is I do not KNOW there's no sticker chart, but before half term the teacher said she would introduce a sticker chart AND SEND IT HOME WITH DD so we could see how she was doing, but we have not had a sticker chart sent home. I therefore assumed there wasn't one. I suppose there still could be, but that the teacher has just forgotten/neglected to send it home. A few people have pointed out that DH and I should have followed up on this and I take your point, we probably should have and that's a lesson for the future.

I'm sorry if I've missed out some of your questions, but I've got to go and get DD ready for school now as we need to leave the house in 20 minutes. Thanks again to all who've responded.

Why don't you phone the school yourself and make an appointment for a meeting/phone call with her and/or the senco? Or leave a message at the office when you drop her at school? Or I find notes in the book bag works well!

Unfortunatly this time of year in a primary school is chaos so the teacher may simply not have found 10 minutes spare to check her emails.

Don't expect her to be available during school hours on the day of the concert, she'll be teaching/sorting out her class before and after it.

It might also be worth finding out when her non-contact hours are. My dc's teachers have been willing to have short meetings/phone calls at those times, particularly if she is having significant issues in the classroom it is in their interests to meet with you too.

The other thing that I wonder is how your dd is with other children. I think that you said that she is your only child and maybe she is finding a class of 29 other children a bit overwhelming. I am going to mention the dreaded play date word, it might be worth asking the teacher (when you finally pin her down) who she is playing with and seeing if you can invite one of them over for a few hours one weekend.

It might help you to see how she interacts with other children. Mine are lovely when they are one-to-one with a parent but introduce a sibling and the arguments emerge. In reception they have all at times found it hard sharing two or three adults with 30 other children. Dd1 also went into a set up where many of them had been to nursery together and she found it hard at first to find her niche in the class.

You need to email the school and ask for feedback on Thursday. Ask when the teacher would be free to meet, rather then just turning up. If Thursday is tricky for the teacher, start using email to communicate with her. You have lap top a access so you could email the school without issue.

Pelican the OP has stated several times that she has repeatedly emailed the school and the teacher but they never reply.

You are not going to like this OP but I say this as a working mother of 21 years standing of 3 children two of which have some extra needs at school .I have always worked in very responsible roles and I have used almost every kind of childcare at some point,dependent on circumstances so I am very pro WOHM .

BUT your current role as you describe it as not compatable with your daughters current needs or in fact your own sanity unless you make drastic changes to your childcare arrangements . Primary schools in the UK nowadays assume high levels of home involvement , just read some if the threads on here .It doesn't have to always be a parent but your life will be much less stressful if you have that cover at home , how on earth do you currently cope if your daughter is ill etc or needs a costume at three days notice etc etc

Get a nanny , yes it's expensive but it is by far the best solution for someone as busy as yourself. Your dd can go to school With everyone else and comeHome at the normal time , she can have play dates and develop her social skills , or just play or watch TV and do homework.Both you and the teacher have a day to say contact point . If your dd is ill you have cover at home etc.

Actually I would be much more direct than that. You've contacted her several times by email and she hasn't answered. Either she just doesn't want to communicate with you or the email address is wrong.
Contact the school and ask if you can check her email address (I assume that it's her work address associated with the school). If it is, contact the HT saying you are really concerned about your dd following the request for an assessment with paed but you've had NO answer from the teacher despite several emails. Explain you really want to support your dd but to do do you need to be able to arrange an appointment with the teacher and can't as she doesn't answer.
You need to show that you are willing to support your dd and the school as much as you can but need their input too.
And you need to be firm.

My experience from 2 different schools is that yes teachers do use 'teacher speak' usually completely unclear to us patents because they be been on the receiving end of so much abuse from parents when they said 'little Johnny us struggling/not behaving' that they don't dare saying so. (Eg I only knew that dc2 was struggling because the teacher said he was getting 1-1 as all the children who are a bit behind'. (He had massive issues with sounds and needed input from a SaLT). But if you want to work with the teacher, you need to be proactive, go and see them, demand a home school book/regular review etc.
One of the issues is that teachers are under if a lot of strain so they won't come and ask you to help but you need to tell them you are going to. What sort is advice could they give you?

Rightly or wrongly, it is not unusual for Primary schools to actively NOT communicate by email.

I know of a situation where a teacher new to a school gave her school email address to a parent. Her email address was then changed because it was not considered an appropriate thing to do.

Home/ school books are much more common and, IME, the 'go to' method when enhanced contact is needed with a particular family.

If that us the case, then the teacher shouldn't have given her email address and should be providing another way for parents to contact her, especially for the ones who can't pick up to contact the teacher and for the teacher to answer (esp as she knows the OP dd goes to breakfast and after school
Club everyday)
That's why we had home school book all along KS1. There should be some system in place in that school too.

What isn't acceptable is a system that relies on parents to be there at pick up time.

You or your husband email the head and general school email address and say your husband is free next thursday and you need to arrange an appt with the class teacher and senco and if that is not possible then he will speak to whoever is available. If no reply then phone and insist you need to make an appointment. Unlikely that the teacher would be free before or after the concert

Mention that the class teacher isn't replying to your attempts to contact her in the email

OP: I have previously contacted the school before asking for the teacher's email address and they've declined to give it to me.

The teacher has not given her email, in fact the school have declined to give it.

I think from the op's 7.38 post she has tried to contact the teacher and not been responded to, so she perhaps tried to contact the teacher by the general school email address in the hope it would be forwarded to her?

"Again if you read back a bit, you will notice that I made a suggestion in my email that I could meet with the teacher after the class Christmas concert which is the week after next, if that suits her, but again she hasn't yet responded so I don't know if that's suitable for her. I also asked in my email that she advise me what would be a good time of day to telephone her (as I obviously don't want to ring and disturb her in the middle of class) but again, I've had no response as yet. Admittedly I was out of the office yesterday, so if she's replied to my work email, it may be waiting for me when I get into the office this morning."

In this post the OP clearly says tthatt she has emailed and had no response

Email the head then and make a complaint about the teacher not returning emails. If the head fails to respond, complain to the governors.

I don't know, but I get the impression the OP is using the general school email.

I'm not saying the school are doing a good job of communicating, clearly they are not. The OP might have more joy using their preferred medium though, which I suspect would be letter.

Just reread and the op only got the phone call from the school nurse on Tuesday this week and said this morning she wasn't able to check her work email on Wednesday for replies, so probably too early to say she has ignored emails, especially as op won't have been able to email her direct.

Surely it is the teachers job to engage a child enough so that they make the activity interesting enough that the child wants to participate.

If the OP's dd is exhausted that wouldn't work Itsfab.

There also comes a point where children need to do less preferred, 'adult led', activities in school because they are essential for their learning. Part of the point of Reception is gently introducing this idea. The hope is that, because it is done gently and gradually, they will be ready to go along with it.

It sounds like the OP's dd is not going along with it, even in the small amounts hoped for in Reception, and the school want to work with the OP to find out why- but they have hit a communication barrier.