To think that the school is jumping the gun?

[AdorableMisfit]

My daughter turned four at the end of June, started Reception class in September. She was never in formal education before she went to school, as due to childcare issues we couldn't take advantage of the 15 hours free nursery education (we live in a part of the country where the Council forces you to send your child to a school nursery 2.5 hours per day, 5 days a week, rather than letting you choose how to use the 15 free hours, so it just wasn't possible for us to fit it around our work and her paid nursery place).

We met with our daughter's teacher at a parents evening just before the half term holiday, so in the latter part of October. She told us then that DD was a bit disruptive, not always following instructions and generally not very good at sitting still and listening. I told the teacher that I put that down to her basicallly being new to all this school stuff and not being used to the formal educational setting and also, you know, due to being four years old. I know other four year olds who behave in much the same way. The teacher suggested that she introduce a sticker chart to try to encourage our DD to behave in class, which I thought was a good idea as she responded well to a sticker chart for potty training when smaller.

I work full time and DD goes to breakfast club and after school club, so I haven't seen the teacher since, but she has my mobile number and email address. Fast forward to today, some 5 weeks later. I've not seen any trace of the suggested sticker chart, nor have I had any more communication from the teacher about my daughter's behaviour, so I assumed that things were improving as I'd heard nothing to the contrary.

Then today, out of the blue, I got a phone call from the school nurse, saying she wants to refer my daughter to a paediatrician for assessment as they are concerned about her behaviour, because she doesn't listen and follow instructions very well, and it's hard to keep her "on task" when they want her to do something. She also said that she's been told by the teacher that my daughter will start randomly crying in class for no apparent reason (rather than crying because she doesn't get her own way, or something). This is not something the school has ever mentioned to me.

I'm absolutely fuming. Surely it's not unreasonable of me to expect that the teacher should have contacted me sooner if she had such serious concerns about DD's behaviour that she was considering contacting a medical professional about it? And surely if they are worried about my daughter's mood they should have talked to me about that before getting a nurse involved?

I have had absolutely no concerns about DD's behaviour at home. Yes, she's not very good at focusing on things she's not interested in, and no, she's not very good at listening and following instructions, but most other four year olds I know are exactly the same. It's not like she's incapable of sitting down and listening at all - she will happily sit and listen to me reading her book after book, and she can snuggle up on the sofa with me and watch an entire Disney movie. She is only four, and I'm sure she will get better at listening to her teacher with time.

AIBU to think that the school is trying to make a medical issue out of something which is completely normal behaviour?

Ps. I agreed to the referral to the paediatrician, just in case, as there's a 6 month waiting list.

She won't get diagnosed with anything at 4 I'd doubt. If she's ADHD tho she's ADHD, label or no label. Better know than not, and you can't change that outcome.....unless you don't believe in ADHD of course...don't let your fears get in the way. Get through this with good grace, then you'll have a better idea. And teachers do tend to word concerns quite kindly....they hope in the first few instances that the parents will get the drift of their concerns without really upsetting them. Parents who take a lead to try and get to the bottom of concerns are the best. It's awful feeling that your going to break some parents heart.

Of course I want my child to have the best experience possible of school and get extra help if she needs it. The fact remains though that the other kids will KNOW if she gets extra help, and WILL make an issue out of it. I was horribly bullied throughout my whole time in compulsory education (not for anything to do with "special needs" because I didn't have any, but for pretty much anything else they could think of to bully me about) and I'm just petrified that she's going to be subjected to the same thing.

I know that doctors don't go around handing out diagnoses willy nilly. I think that perhaps my perception in somewhat skewed because I work in the criminal justice system where a large proportion of my clients tell me they were told they had special educational needs in some way or another, and they're in their 20s, 30s, even 40s now and that label is still with them (along with a whole load of other unhelpful labels).

A diagnosis of SEN won't 'follow her' in a prejudicial way if this is just an adjustment to formal schooling/summer born thing.

I have one year 10 student in particular who has an SEN code on the tracker because there were some concerns - similar sounding issues to your dd - when she was at primary, which are now no longer requiring intervention. (Other students I teach have ongoing SEN, obviously).

I'm aware of it, simply because it's on the data I have about her which goes back to KS1, but it doesn't affect her current behaviour, ability, or progress (& hasn't since before she started secondary), so it doesn't affect how I teach her or my expectations of her.

I'd just be expected to know the background for monitoring/Ofsted purposes.

It's probably not helpful to assume that there's a stigma attached to a 'label'; what is more important is that if your dc needs extra support this year, she gets it. If all is well soon - great.

The communication doesn't sound brilliant. I might be inclined to take issue with my not having been kept informed of the teacher's ongoing concerns & referral to outside agency.

It is always a shock when you find that your child may be having difficulties at school or in other social situations.

Keep a regular and open dialogue going with the school from now on so that you are not caught on the back foot again.

If your daughter is diagnosed with any problems then it will be a great advantage to her to get the right support in place as early in her educational career as possible. That is the purpose of all of this. It is not an attempt to label and stigmatise her.

Go along with it willingly and work with the system, not against it. It really is the best way forward.

OP After reading your more recent posts, I think that you may be struggling with the UK system as well.
Every where has its quirks in the way they do things. In the UK the teacher often gives feedback as you pick up/drop off. So as a parent in the playground I see a lot of children where at handover the teacher can just say ''dd has had a very good day, she did some great listening'' This constant daily reinforcement, coupled with the child seeing the partnership between school and home, is very useful. I think schools are much less good at knowing how to do that with parents who work full time.

She should have followed up with the sticker chart. Given that the chart hasn't happened, I would suggest a home school book, where she can give your dd a sticker/comment each day and you an comment back if necessary.

It is pretty unheard of that teachers do regular phone feedback to parents. They also at primary level don't really do email. You can email the school, but not the teacher. This is very much because they assume they will see you at drop off/pick up.

If there is a concern, (and it may all be an over reaction) but if there is a problem, you need to be very pro-active, keeping detailed records of all conversations, meetings, promises, plans of action etc.

I would also say that at this time of year reception age children are very tired, fed up, cranky and over emotional.

We've had reception kids crying purely because they are so tired in the last week.

raveAK - thanks for your informative post, that's actually really reassuring to know. And thanks for not thinking that I'm totally unreasonable for feeling that the teacher should have contacted ME before she contacted the school nurse. At the very least she could have popped a note in DD's book bag, surely?

As I said earlier, I've emailed to ask to have a face to face meeting, sadly I probably won't be able to do it before Christmas because I have work commitments I can't cancel and also have to travel abroad for a family funeral (so this could have come at better time really as I'm already feeling a bit emotional having lost a close relative). I've already booked a morning off work to go to the Christmas concert, so have asked if the teacher might be able to meet with me on that morning, and if not, first week of January.

I have found that teachers rarely mention issues early on unless you specifically ask. If they raise any concerns it is a good idea to keep checking with them at regular intervals. This will keep you informed as they more easily recall the most recent episodes.

Our school gives each child a contact book where parents can write notes to the teacher. The teacher then replies in the same book. Perhaps you could try this?

The sort of info you get from private nurseries I believe is mostly for children who are not yet talking. IME the info becomes less and less the older the child gets.

Of course I want my child to have the best experience possible of school and get extra help if she needs it. The fact remains though that the other kids will KNOW if she gets extra help, and WILL make an issue out of it.

I highly doubt it. I don't think the teacher has handled this particularly well. She's dropped an unexpected bomb on you and that's not right.

However, speaking to her directly (make an appointment for face-to-face before you ask for regular updates) and go to the referral. Better to be safe than sorry.

But there is no stigma in having help any more. If she was assigned a TA (unlikely I would have said) she will be skilful in working with your DD alongside other children and they really, really don't care who she is specifically there for.

Agree the 15 hours is a red herring. DD got exactly the same from nursery as others got from their 15 hours elsewhere.

Secondly in a reception class most children will be able to follow simple instructions and behave well. There will be a minority who don't and they might need intervention. I'm now wondering if you've normalised her behaviour but it must be extreme for the teacher to refer on.

You need to change your thinking. See the Ed psych as a positive helpful thing. If she requires extra support to work, then it's in her interest!

Just relax. You can't change the outcome and her getting help will not result her facing what you fear. Be careful not to project your worries onto her. Be positive with her re any extra help she gets. Your outlook will impact on her outlook.

Steppemum - thanks for your thoughts. I find it hard to comprehend that schools would not be used to parents working full time in this day and age and have systems in place for how to communicate with those parents whose kids go to wraparound care. Not everyone can afford to work less hours so that they can drop off/pick up themselves. A home/school book sounds like a great idea, I'll suggest that to the teacher when I get the chance to speak to her, which will hopefully be soon.
My only experience of education in the UK is at University level, I've been to two different universities here (three actually if you include some evening classes I took a few years back too) and e-mail was pretty much the primary mode of communication with my lecturers, so I guess I just assumed that primary school teachers would be with the 21st century, too!

All the children I know are supportive of the children with physical or learning needs.

The fact remains though that the other kids will KNOW if she gets extra help, and WILL make an issue out of it.

Really this is not true. In my kids school we have lots of kids with SEN. Some visible (physical) some not visible, behavioural, educational, emotional. There is a boy with autism and kids with ADHD and so on.

The other kids are amazing. The school ethos is inclusion and expects all kids to respect each other. I see a lot of peer to peer caring and support. I see kids readily adapt their behaviour to help a child whose needs are different to theirs.

There are so many adults in and out of classrooms that the extra support is not really that obvious. And anyway the breadth of ability within a class is huge.

Please don't worry about that.

And I totally agree with pp who said that the difference in communication from nursery to school is huge,. You go from knowing the activities they have done all day, to not knowing anything unless you ask, and even then not knowing!

There's no way that either you or her father could make time to talk face to face with the teacher about something this important until January??????

Well, it's almost midnight and I have to get to bed or I'll be too shattered to get DD up in time tomorrow morning. Thanks for your thoughts everyone and I'll try to be back tomorrow evening to respond to a few more of you.

The age and experience of the teacher is pretty irrelevant tbh. She won't be making a referral without the advice of her SENCO anyway. Your child would have been observed by at least one other teacher before the decision for a referral has been made.

I have always been happy to chat to a parent on the phone when required. I would suggest planning these chats well in advance. Perhaps aim for the second week back after each half term. Pencil in a time at around 3.45 for a chat to the teacher.

Make it very clear that you are happy and willing to be rung at work by the teacher when necessary. Explain that you are finding it very hard not being there for drop off and pick up. Perhaps you could suggest a home school diary. Just a smiley face/straight face/sad face for each session each day with one sentence at the end of the day. Perfectly manageable for a teacher.

Don't worry about a referral. See what is said first and then decide if you has cause for concern. Try and see a referral as a positive thing. Some children go years without one when all it is is a need for glasses or grommets.

Try and trust your school. Referrals cost schools money and they certainly don't do them for fun.

my ds has just started secondary. Email is the primary tool of communication. At primary I never emailed about anything!

I think the assumption is that the child has to be collected in person, so the teacher can communicate in person. That works for anyone picking up, whether parent/grandparent/childminder etc, but not for after school club.

Actually, I have to say that very few parents at our school have 2 parents who work full time hours 5 days per week. And of those who do, many manage to drop off before work, or they don't work every day, or they have help from grandparents to collect.

Not saying I agree, just that that is how it is.

Hakluyt - not really, no. Tomorrow I'll be on the road for work, won't be back until the teacher's finished for the day. On Thursday I have scheduled appointments with clients starting at 9 am and finishing at 6pm. Friday I'm again out of the office and won't be home till late. Then next week I've got three days in the office to fit in five days work, before I have to go "home" (although I haven't lived there for 16 years) for a funeral. The following week I'm out and about again attending meetings to do with keeping other people's children safe from harm (ironic that) on the Monday, the Tuesday is the day of the Christmas concert when I've suggested meeting with the teacher, and then I have late appointments in again on the Wednesday and Thursday so can't get to the school in time before the teacher goes home for the day. The Friday I'm on duty, so I'm not allowed to leave the office before 5pm, and that's the last day of term. Then we've got two weeks Christmas holiday and then we're into January, so if SHE can't do the day I've suggested, then no, I can't meet her until January.
The problem with my job is that I have a caseload that nobody else covers if I'm not there to do the work, so any time I take off I have to try to make up some other time, and sometimes I have deadlines that have to be met, for example for Court reports. I don't think the Crown Court would take too kindly to being told "sorry, the report isn't done because the officer who was supposed to write it left early to go to her daughter's school".

Thanks very much for trying to make me feel guilty about being a working mother with a really difficult job and trying to earn enough money to provide a reasonable standard of living for my child. You're really very helpful and supportive. Maybe I should quit my job and go on the dole, but then I suppose you'd criticise me for that, too.

I work ft 5 days a week (teaching secondary English) & dh works away, so I share OP's frustrations re: a system that relies on playground handovers for communication.

Email is the answer, IMO - I must exchange a dozen emails a day with parents & it's vastly preferable to endless phone tag.

Having said that - in these circumstances I'd be going in for a meeting before Christmas, OP. You can't very easily complain of lack of consultation whilst simultaneously being unavailable to meet for the next calendar month!

At the very least, scheduling a proper phone conversation to discuss both your & the teacher's concerns should be indicated at this stage.

I agree with most of what you're saying op, and agree the communication was not good; buuut please realise that this isn't how 'most' 4 year olds behave. I would say the contrary, most are able to listen, and there are a minority who can't.
You might be right, it might be just settling in (as I do believe there us a marked difference between a formal school nursery with a proper teacher and a nursery) but defo worth having it checked out.

I just wanted to add that my DC is in a class with an extra 1-2-1 TA for a child who needs extra help and although the kids know why that TA is there, ie. "to help Child Y" actually they regard them as another of their teachers, and love having them around generally. There are no issues as far as I am aware with any of the kids bullying because of this. They're young and accept it for how things are. I know it's hard not to worry when you've had a difficult experience yourself but try not to.

The UK system is very different to the Scandinavian system. I know other parents from your background who struggle to adjust to the more formal demands on very small people. You're not wrong, in a way, but the system here is what it is and both DCs and parents need to adjust to it and its expectations.

Working full-time is hard as a parent of a primary school child. Are you a lone parent? Where's your DC's father in all this? I'd say you really do need to make the effort to try to see the teacher formally before this Christmas term is ended - it's rubbish, when you feel you can't take the time, but it really is important to do it, both for your DC and for your relationship with the school if things aren't quite right. You need to show them you're willing, iyswim.

Four year olds in reception are SOOOO tired by now. Four year olds in reception who go to both breakfast and after school club are even tireder than most. I'd say that explains the crying! It's not the same (as you have identified) as doing a long day at nursery with lots of downtime and free play. There's so much for them to negotiate emotionally, it drains them, even if they've always coped fine with the same hours when younger at nursery. Have you looked into local childminders or an after-school nanny perhaps? That might give your DD some breathing space?

Good luck.

If your dd was at full time private nursery 5 days a week all day, she should have had plenty of experience of sections of formal learning, preparing for school and mixing socially.

I find it interesting that you are criticising the teacher for not communicating better with you, whilst at the same time, you are not available to be able to make time to meet her for several weeks.

I agree with everyone else on this thread though, that this referral won't have been made lightly, or easily. The teacher won't have made the decision on her own, it would have involved the SENCo too. The school staff will have vast amounts of experience of "young" 4 yr olds, and will know the difference between a bit of immaturity and something that is more of a concern. It does sound as if they've missed out a stage of communicating with you, but your idea of a fortnightly phonecall is completely unrealistic. The home school book for important messages now and then is more likely, but you have to keep in mind the teacher has 30 pupils in the class - even if they only spent 1min on each child, think of the impact that would have across the day. YOu have to have expectations that are realistic.

I also agree that the not having the 15 hours is a red herring, as both school Nursery and Private Nursery both follow the same curriculum, (the EYFS) which, incidentally, should also be being followed in Reception.

Set up a phone call for your lunch time. Def don't wait a month for a face to face.