To think that the school is jumping the gun?

[AdorableMisfit]

My daughter turned four at the end of June, started Reception class in September. She was never in formal education before she went to school, as due to childcare issues we couldn't take advantage of the 15 hours free nursery education (we live in a part of the country where the Council forces you to send your child to a school nursery 2.5 hours per day, 5 days a week, rather than letting you choose how to use the 15 free hours, so it just wasn't possible for us to fit it around our work and her paid nursery place).

We met with our daughter's teacher at a parents evening just before the half term holiday, so in the latter part of October. She told us then that DD was a bit disruptive, not always following instructions and generally not very good at sitting still and listening. I told the teacher that I put that down to her basicallly being new to all this school stuff and not being used to the formal educational setting and also, you know, due to being four years old. I know other four year olds who behave in much the same way. The teacher suggested that she introduce a sticker chart to try to encourage our DD to behave in class, which I thought was a good idea as she responded well to a sticker chart for potty training when smaller.

I work full time and DD goes to breakfast club and after school club, so I haven't seen the teacher since, but she has my mobile number and email address. Fast forward to today, some 5 weeks later. I've not seen any trace of the suggested sticker chart, nor have I had any more communication from the teacher about my daughter's behaviour, so I assumed that things were improving as I'd heard nothing to the contrary.

Then today, out of the blue, I got a phone call from the school nurse, saying she wants to refer my daughter to a paediatrician for assessment as they are concerned about her behaviour, because she doesn't listen and follow instructions very well, and it's hard to keep her "on task" when they want her to do something. She also said that she's been told by the teacher that my daughter will start randomly crying in class for no apparent reason (rather than crying because she doesn't get her own way, or something). This is not something the school has ever mentioned to me.

I'm absolutely fuming. Surely it's not unreasonable of me to expect that the teacher should have contacted me sooner if she had such serious concerns about DD's behaviour that she was considering contacting a medical professional about it? And surely if they are worried about my daughter's mood they should have talked to me about that before getting a nurse involved?

I have had absolutely no concerns about DD's behaviour at home. Yes, she's not very good at focusing on things she's not interested in, and no, she's not very good at listening and following instructions, but most other four year olds I know are exactly the same. It's not like she's incapable of sitting down and listening at all - she will happily sit and listen to me reading her book after book, and she can snuggle up on the sofa with me and watch an entire Disney movie. She is only four, and I'm sure she will get better at listening to her teacher with time.

AIBU to think that the school is trying to make a medical issue out of something which is completely normal behaviour?

Ps. I agreed to the referral to the paediatrician, just in case, as there's a 6 month waiting list.

[TimelyNameChangey]

Hak that's a very natural fear though. Especially for parents over 35 who grew up in a much less understanding or inclusive school environment than DC do today.

[Hakluyt]

But I am going to stick to my point that if neither of the parents of a 4 year old who is causing concern can make time in their working lives to talk face to face with school for over 4 weeks, then they really need to reassess their lives. Because the one they have isn't going to work.

[Pooka]

Just to reassure you, ds1 had some input from ed psych, social communication team at the local authority, and also from the SENCO. THis was when he was in year 1. He's now in year 4 and has very little input, there's more of a watching brief.

Not once has any comment been made by other pupils or by parents. No one would know any information about what issues he had - some parents do because we chatted and there's nothing shameful about SENCO input. With ds1 the intervention started because he was desperately unhappy in year 1, very socially awkward and terribly sad about going to school, tied in with being exceptionally good at reading/writing so needing extension beyond what was capable of being offered in year 1. Gradually as he has matured and as his ability to self-extend has improved, and as the difference in ability has decreased, he's needed less input.

[skylark2]

"OP is from a country where much less pressure is put on children this young."

She's also in a country where much less pressure is put on children this young. It's very unusual for a just-turned-4 to be in both breakfast club and after school club 5 days a week. Most 4 year olds get to go home after school. Possibly a childminder's home or with a nanny, but nevertheless to a situation where they can curl up in a comfy chair and rest, rather than to a busy social situation.

Again, this may be due to a lack of familiarity with the system - the school makes the facility available to 4 year olds, the OP may not have considered that available does not necessarily mean suitable for use every day for a very young child.

As far as "labels" are concerned, it's a total non issue. My DS was referred in I think year 2 for speech therapy. It helped, he no longer needs it, nobody's mentioned it in years.

[TimelyNameChangey]

Hak it's probably fear based. I was told that my DD was struggling socially at one point and I was filled with fear and depression about it. I actively avoided seeing her teacher at pick up for a while!

It's fine now...I did eventually bite the bullet and go in....the beautiful teacher had such a great plan to help Dd and the plan was executed brilliantly. I was very lucky...or rather DD was to have such amazing staff at the school.

[TimelyNameChangey]

Sky it's not so...not in my DC school. TONNES of the children go to wraparound care and your tone is nasty and judgmental. Plenty of DC thrive just fine going to breakfast and after school clubs.

[Madamecastafiore]

If the had teacher waited a year to discuss this with you and told you she had had concerns from the end of her first term you would be posting about how she should have contacted you when she first became concerned.

Go in and see what they have to say. Understand that they have your daughters best interests at heart and work with them.

[AliceinWinterWonderland]

that's a very natural fear though. Especially for parents over 35 who grew up in a much less understanding or inclusive school environment than DC do today

Have you read MN in the last year? Things aren't really that inclusive now. All the posts of parents complaining the children with SNs are being foisted on theirs, slowing up the class, interfering with their child's education, disrupting the class. It's better than it was years ago - but only because there are laws. Certainly not because people are just better people and more accepting. (some are, but loads simply are not!)

It IS a valid fear to someone who is new to the idea that their child may have SEN.

[ouryve]

Hakluyt, most people who work full time get around 25 days annual leave. I imagine that where families only have adults who work full time, much of that leave is going to be needed in school holidays. And do you suggest that teachers give up their jobs, on the off chance that they need to speak to their child's school teacher face to face?

[LarrytheCucumber]

Thank your lucky stars OP. The SEN boards are full of parents worried sick about their children who can't get the school to take them seriously. You have exactly the opposite. It may well be that there is no problem, but as the parent of an adult who had SEN at school I would just try to look at it as a positive.

[loiner45]

my youngest was not ready for school, didn't get on with the teacher and was really not co-operative, I was told she might have special needs, and the school were insistent about this - fortunately I am a teacher myself so was able to make a more informed judgement.

After a move to another, more relaxed, school she thrived, eventually got 2 A's and a B at A level and is now in her second year at University.

I do think we start formal education far too early in this country.

[ouryve]

And sorry that I've quite rudely barged into your thread, OP.

We did have concerns about DS1, when he started nursery (attached to the small-ish local school, in our case, so nursery manager was also reception class teacher) and I was relieved when the teacher took me to one side and asked if he was under a paediatrician or had any other referrals and she strongly pressed me to get him referred so that they could get an ed psych in to assess him, as he spent most of his time either pinballing around the room or hiding outside, even when it was cold.

In your case, the teacher's observations may amount to something or nothing, but at least they have been reasonably pro-active, rather than trotting out that tired old dismissive statement that your DD is "fine" when she's not. I'll agree with others that it's probably a shock, when it wasn't something you were expecting.

As for the reactions of others, I've found that most young kids vary between oblivious and quite caring, so long as their parents show a supportive attitude. Our local primary has a very mixed intake (some parents living in extreme poverty, others who are vets or GPs!) and most classes have a TA or parent helpers around for much of the day, right up to year 6. Most classes have one or two kids in with marked AN and a few more who struggle in various areas, or are somewhat immature or disorganised. If your DD does turn out to need help, then, if the help she is given is appropriate, school is far more likely to be a positive experience for her, in the long term, than if she's constantly tired or stressed by her environment and the effort she needs to make to get through the day.

And, even though it sounds odd, it's a good thing that she's expressing her discomfort by being physically restless, because the alternative, which is becoming passive, is far easier for adults to ignore and dismiss as "fine".

[ouryve]

Oh - and it's worth asking about the sticker chart. They can be great for things that a child can do, but need encouraging with so that they become habit. If it's the case that your DD can't sit still in that classroom (might be physically uncomfortable because her body feels restless, too claustrophic, too distracting, too boring because she's struggling to access the thing that she's supposed to be sitting and paying attention to....) then the sticker chart isn't going to work and might actually turn out to be de-motivating.

[HumblePieMonster]

Seems to me that the teacher tried her best to get the message across at parents evening, you pooh-poohed her so she took the only course of action possible. I should have thought that you would have kept in touch with the school after the class teacher had expressed such concern.

[CockBollocks]

The paediatrician is a good thing and will find any issues or rule out issues.

Then you can concentrate on getting her settled, she is very young and it will probably end up being a maturity thing but best to make sure.

I would ask for a little home - school book that you can write in and her teacher can write any concerns, such as the crying. Keep it positive as kids will pick up on it if it becomes negative.

My DS was receiving help from reception to year four where he finally seems to have matured a bit (this year) it is a good thing and the other children don't bat an eyelid - two of DS classmates are dyslexic and go off to special tutoring twice a week, most of the other kids are desperate to join them!!!

[skylark2]

Gobsmacked that suggesting that full time wraparound in-school care might not be suitable for a kid who's barely 4 is considered "nasty and judgemental."

I don't spend all my time namechanging, so I guess I've offended the poster somewhere else.

[Hakluyt]

Is referral to a paediatrician from a school normal procedure? It isn't round here............

[Libra]

Hi OP - another Scandinavian-British mixed family here. In our case DH is Scandinavian and has always been very unhappy about the early school start times for children in this country. We are also both full-time parents with the same problems that you have about meetings with the school and no hand-over meetings at the end of the day.
Thus DH has always been quick to focus on the issue of the early start whenever DS2's behaviour at school came up - as it did from P1 onwards. He just felt that he was immature and that it was too early to expect him to conform to what the teacher required. We ended up with a very sad child by P4 who was refusing to do much work at all at school and had no friends.
We tried a home-school diary, by the way, but it really wasn't a good experience for us. Having an essay every night about what DS2 had done wrong today was an awful experience for everyone involved and I eventually asked for it to stop because it was so negative and draining.
Luckily the school got a new head the following year and she immediately recommended that DS2 see the educational psychologist. DH reacted in the exact same way as you - didn't want him 'labelled', but I insisted that we followed through, and I am really glad that we did.
Firstly because the ed psych basically agreed with DH that DS2 was immature, which seemed to relax the teachers a lot as well. She also recommended various coping strategies for both DS2 and the teachers. She had sessions with him and also with the whole class to discuss things like inclusion. She and his teacher also worked with the secondary school during transition.
The result? (Touch wood, etc). We have a thriving boy with friends (three - not millions, but three is amazing from where we were two years ago). He works in class, does his homework on time, has so far won two awards for English, is in the school play and, most of the time, is HAPPY.

[museumum]

LIbra - what a reassuring post. Glad to hear things have picked up for your ds.

[HighwayDragon]

It's not nasty and judgemental to suggest the wrap around care isn't working for this child, it works for some, not for others, it sounds like ops dd is very tired and needs an environment where she can rest in the evening.

[riveravon23]

As a parent of children with special needs, and now a foster carer who has looked after many, many children with different emotional, educational and physical difficulties, I wanted to let you know that "the dreaded label" you fear, is the best thing that can happen to the children. With "the label" they received much additional help and support, which will continue into adulthood, those without a label but still with issues are expected to conform to the norm, which they cannot do, and suffer greatly from it. At least that is my experience.

However, it is more likely however that there are no medical difficulties with your child, but I was a little upset at your feelings towards that potential label. Really, getting an accurate diagnoses for a child is the very best thing that could happen. I can't begin to tell you how impossible it is for a child with additional needs that are never recognised.

So, I would congratulate the teacher and the SENCO/Head who would also be involved in making the referral. I only wish that the children I have cared for had such pro-active staff in those early years...very often referrals are made until much later in the primary school years, by which time damage will be done. So although I agree they should have informed you directly, without your presence at the school gate from time to time, it may not have been that easy. I know it sounds simple to say they could email you, but honestly in all my years as a parent/foster carer I have never had a single email from a teacher...perhaps it is just not done?

I also see you have a busy schedule. But as such a loving mother who obviously wants the best for her child, can you not spare an hour one day to collect your child at the end of school before Christmas and speak to the class teacher then. I do not mean to come across as unkind, as a working mother you obviously face many logistical difficulties, but I am also sure your daughter comes first, and it may help her enormously to have a face to face with her teacher now...and maybe every now and again after that.

When I look back at the children I have cared for, and I'm experiencing such huge problems with one at the moment at school, the MOST important thing is that you, as a parent, are seen by your child to be working together. That the child witnesses you and the school meeting and talking and getting along. That way both sides can get a more rounded picture of the child, and therefore help them more in whatever way is most needed. Without that regular contact both school and home are working independently of each other. One of the biggest breakthroughs we witness when children come into our care, is when the child realises we communicate regularly with the school, so that any issues on either side are addressed and dealt with...and like children can play off one parent against the other, so often children play off school against home when they are older.

So, as others have said the referral can only be a good thing. She's absolutely fine with no problems or issues, or she has a minor issue which can be helped and dealt with. It's a win/win.

I wish you good luck, and hope my words have not come across harshly, just wanted to try and let you know that the referral would have been made my senior staff (not just the class teacher) who obviously want the best for your little girl...even if lack of communication with you needs addressing.

Good luck to you both!

[NotCitrus]

It could also be that the teachers know it can take forever to get a slot via school with the paediatrician - I had one teacher wanting to refer my ds by week 3 of Reception (lunch issues - no problems at all in class). The school gets a certain number of slots. It's over a year later and because there hasn't also been a referal to the same services from the GP, because they and I don't think it's necessary, he still hasn't been seen. Whereas dn was referred by school, GP and then SALT, so was seen quickly.

I suspect there were a number of kids like ds who were referred just in case, so that if it turned out their difficulties weren't just being young for Reception, they'd already be in the system and not have to wait as long for appointments when they were really struggling.

[AliceinWinterWonderland]

Okay, honestly, the people that continue to harp on and on about the OP's job and why can't she be a caring parent and take time off work or cut her hours or what have you... they need to back off. The OP has already stated that this isn't easy for her to do. She's not once said "I work as many hours as I can to get away from my child."

So perhaps instead of trying to make her feel guilty or going on about something she's already said is not possible, PERHAPS it would be more helpful to offer HELPFUL advice. Note that "taking more time off" and "cutting your hours" is not helpful.

Really, people, this is not rocket science. What happened to supporting other parents, rather than trashing them? She's not doing anything wrong in working - more likely she just enjoys being able to pay for those silly things like rent, groceries, and so on.