To think that the school is jumping the gun?

[AdorableMisfit]

My daughter turned four at the end of June, started Reception class in September. She was never in formal education before she went to school, as due to childcare issues we couldn't take advantage of the 15 hours free nursery education (we live in a part of the country where the Council forces you to send your child to a school nursery 2.5 hours per day, 5 days a week, rather than letting you choose how to use the 15 free hours, so it just wasn't possible for us to fit it around our work and her paid nursery place).

We met with our daughter's teacher at a parents evening just before the half term holiday, so in the latter part of October. She told us then that DD was a bit disruptive, not always following instructions and generally not very good at sitting still and listening. I told the teacher that I put that down to her basicallly being new to all this school stuff and not being used to the formal educational setting and also, you know, due to being four years old. I know other four year olds who behave in much the same way. The teacher suggested that she introduce a sticker chart to try to encourage our DD to behave in class, which I thought was a good idea as she responded well to a sticker chart for potty training when smaller.

I work full time and DD goes to breakfast club and after school club, so I haven't seen the teacher since, but she has my mobile number and email address. Fast forward to today, some 5 weeks later. I've not seen any trace of the suggested sticker chart, nor have I had any more communication from the teacher about my daughter's behaviour, so I assumed that things were improving as I'd heard nothing to the contrary.

Then today, out of the blue, I got a phone call from the school nurse, saying she wants to refer my daughter to a paediatrician for assessment as they are concerned about her behaviour, because she doesn't listen and follow instructions very well, and it's hard to keep her "on task" when they want her to do something. She also said that she's been told by the teacher that my daughter will start randomly crying in class for no apparent reason (rather than crying because she doesn't get her own way, or something). This is not something the school has ever mentioned to me.

I'm absolutely fuming. Surely it's not unreasonable of me to expect that the teacher should have contacted me sooner if she had such serious concerns about DD's behaviour that she was considering contacting a medical professional about it? And surely if they are worried about my daughter's mood they should have talked to me about that before getting a nurse involved?

I have had absolutely no concerns about DD's behaviour at home. Yes, she's not very good at focusing on things she's not interested in, and no, she's not very good at listening and following instructions, but most other four year olds I know are exactly the same. It's not like she's incapable of sitting down and listening at all - she will happily sit and listen to me reading her book after book, and she can snuggle up on the sofa with me and watch an entire Disney movie. She is only four, and I'm sure she will get better at listening to her teacher with time.

AIBU to think that the school is trying to make a medical issue out of something which is completely normal behaviour?

Ps. I agreed to the referral to the paediatrician, just in case, as there's a 6 month waiting list.

One last thought: if you got an after-school nanny, you could authorise the teacher to give the in-person handover to them, to pass on to you? It sounds as if your work is stressful and it may well be worth paying to relieve some of the associated stress of extended care and lack of communication with the school.

It's not clear from your posts if you're a lone parent or not, but in the situation you describe if I couldn't meet the teacher because of immoveable commitments I'd be making damn sure my DCs father went and attended. Does he have any flexibility, if he's on the scene?

Hope the teacher can meet when you've asked them to. And sorry for your loss - stressful times.

YANBU to think they should have contacted you first but to be fair you also should have chased up the sticker chart thing.

Anyway, I wanted to say that DS2 struggled to settle into reception at first concentration wise and the teacher talked of soon getting him assessed if things didn't improve. This was around end Oct/ early Nov.

This came as a great shock to us as my gut feeling was that he just wasn't quite ready for school but there was nothing 'wrong' with him.

By the February half term they had decided he was fine with no issues. It really was just the case that he wasn't used to having to sit still etc but he did settle in ok, it just took a bit longer than some. He is now in yr6 and is doing brilliantly both academically and socially.

So, if there is something wrong at least you'll get a diagnosis or some help but don't ignore the fact your instinct may actually be right.

Good luck.

Listen to the teacher. When a teacher thinks there is an issue, they are rarely wrong.

AdorableMisfit - your working hours are not the teacher's fault. They are trying to engage you in a problem your daughter is having. This does not merit a two paragraph rant about how hard your job is, because that's tough luck. Your daughters needs come first, and she needs you to ta to her teacher properly. Teachers are not nursery workers, they are not CHILDCARE providers. You have to fit your time around them - they are there for your child, not for you.

Adorable, I also found that working ft seemed to make communication with the school almost impossible and dd's school insisted that 'most parents' were able to make meetings and activities in the middle if the day so I shouldn't complain. It drove me crazy.

If the teacher says no to email, ask her to provide a reasonable communication system which doesn't disadvantage your daughter just because her mother works. It really isn't OK to assume that mum will pick up dc every day.

It is worth listening to the teacher and her concerns. None if us can tell from what you've written what the truth of the matter is. If the teacher left this until later in the year your dd may not get an appointment until after this year so the teacher may just be trying to be pro active and make sure your dd gets seen.

Good luck with this, and sorry to hear you have a funeral to cope with as well.

your working hours are not the teacher's fault. They are trying to engage you in a problem your daughter is having. This does not merit a two paragraph rant about how hard your job is, because that's tough luck. Your daughters needs come first, and she needs you to ta to her teacher properly. Teachers are not nursery workers, they are not CHILDCARE providers. You have to fit your time around them - they are there for your child, not for you.

Trollsworth Don't be ridiculous. In this day and age, where email and telephones exist, when a parent is working full time to make ends meet, or in a job where it is difficult to get time off, there are numerous ways to communicate. It doesn't necessarily need to be face to face.

I don't work, I'm home all day, and STILL cannot get the teacher to properly communicate. The school my 5yo ds2 goes to does not facilitate communication with the teacher in the morning as they insist the child goes into the school by themselves. In the afternoon, ds2 is picked up by a childminder as I have to be at ds1's specialised school to pick him up as he is disabled and there simply is nobody else to pick him up. I've sent notes in to the teacher, written in his reading diary, left messages in the office - always requesting a meeting or contact of some sort from the teacher. No response. It took me complaining to administration before I finally got a meeting with the teacher. Then when we agreed on a course of action regarding ds2 at the meeting in early November, I found out this week that she has utterly disregarded everything we agreed upon at the meeting. And now I'm struggling to set up ANOTHER meeting (which I'm worried will be just as pointless).

Sometimes a school (or an individual teacher) has poor communication - either because of a poor school set-up or individual poor organisational or communication skills. Are you expecting the OP to cut her hours so she can be available when the teacher finally decides to communicate with her? Are YOU going to cover her drop in income? Or perhaps she should just stop working completely - that'll go over well. So I guess she's required to choose between the label of scrounger or shit parent. Nice.

OP, definitely follow through with the referral. It's likely that the reason you may not have heard of other struggles your dd is having because the teacher is poor at communication (and unfortunately follow through as well, if she's not even bothered to do the sticker chart). If there are issues, she will get support. If not, then she won't need it. But either way, I'd be insisting on a home/school book, and then if it's not being used, go to the head to find out why.

I think part of the problem may be that the OP hasn't got experience of the British education system. She thought the report meant her DD was doing well, whereas to me it's pretty obvious teacher-speak for "your DD is very behind in these areas."

And, OP, since you are never in school and haven't spoken to the teacher, how do you know there isn't a star chart?

I also suspect your child is exhausted. Breakfast club, and after school club, every single day, for a summer born 4 year old? I appreciate many people need to work full time but can't you find even one day a week when she gets a bit of a lie in, or to be picked up and go straight home? You say "we" in your initial post - can't they do a school run once a week or go to a meeting with the teacher before January?

I found reception one of the most difficult periods to be working full time , the system is just not geared up for it and I honestly think school based wraparound care is just too much for most four year olds to cope with . I would think about an after school nanny or childminder for a bit , it's possible that your daughter is just exhausted and that taking the pressure off on the care front ( many four year olds barely manage tea and bath after school in the first term) may help enormously .

After school club is not like nursery , my ds3 was doing full days at nursery but still needed to just come home and flop.

I had a similar experience when DS started primary school. We were blissfully unaware that there were any problems until the Parent's Evening in October when we were held back for a conference with the head of lower years (can't remember her title now and then role no longer exists). We were completely blindsided and found ourselves agreeing to whatever the school said. This included a referral to the Educational Psychologist because the head of lower years was convinced he had ADHD and was talking about possibly needing to medicate him

The referral to the Educational Psychologist turned out to be an excellent idea. She came in and said that DS showed absolutely no signs of any primary problems but that the school's treatment of him had resulted in a range of secondary problems (e.g. If he so much as chewed on his pencil he wasn't allowed out after his lunch and had to sit at a table in the library for half an hour and just stare at the table).

I know your situation is different and I'm sure the school isn't acting inappropriately, but I'm posting to encourage you to take any referrals because we found it helped immensely to have an impartial third party observe DS.

FWIW, DS is now 12 and is thriving at one of the top Scottish Îndependent schools- you'd never guess he was that little 5 year old in P1!

You many not be happy with the lack of communication (but that works both ways) but he school have identified a possible problem and are looking to support your daughter - how fantastic!

OP, do I pick up a little that you don't agree with formal education this young? Do you think your DD could have picked up on your thoughts that it should just be play at school and she should be able to do whatever she likes? Children can come up with their own interpretations of the smallest things you say in their hearing.

I also agree that she is probably exhausted and maybe she is too tired to learn. I think this could explain the tears.

Could you afford a nanny? It would be a lot easier on your DD. Breakfast and after school clubs can frankly be zoos and really not a very restful environment, especially for one so young. Even a CM would probably be better in terms of your DD being able to relax.

I agree the school should have been communicating more with you but that also you could have emailed to see how your DD was getting on with the sticker chart.

However schools do,not make referrals unless they have significant concerns. Mainly because they have to provide specialist support which eats into their already very stretched budget.

I would accept the referral, tell the pead what you have said here about struggling with following instructions (test if it's listening or an inability to retain the information.) tell them about how she can only focus on her activities not adult led or chosen.

I wish when school were telling me all about this when my DS was 4, August baby so even younger in school, and them agreeing with me it wasn't developmentally normal - they had put in place support and referrals.

We wouldn't have had the crap last few years we have had with all the referrals and assessments for a dx. And DS would have had support before he had a breakdown and began school refusing.

I too think she could be extremely tired. Breakfast and afterschool care for a young-in-year reception child is a lot. My old-in-year DD2 was exhausted for her first term in reception and that was on a normal day when she had been at the school's nursery prior to that.

I think the suggestion of using a nanny/childminder who is authorised to 'touch base' with the teacher may be a good idea for Reception/Year 1 if it is at all practical for you. ASC are busy places, and not a wind down at the end of the day.

Other children, especially in infants, won't notice your child getting extra support. Loads of children get extra help for loads of things - phonics support, maths support, motor skills, speech, and yes, behaviour. No one bats an eye about this at my DD's school.

I think if the school has concerns it is excellent that they are being pro-active about it. As you say, a referral may take ages by which time it may be a non-issue. But if there are still concerns in 6 months time, then it will be great to have someone check things out.

It may also be that your expectations of behaviour are different due to your Scandinavian background. What may be considered 'normal' in Norway/Sweden/Denmark may be considered behind (or ahead) in the UK. The teacher will probably have seen loads more 4 year olds than you have.

My daughter is a teacher, she will call working parents in the evening if she needs to talk to them. Teachers work much longer hours than you realise, it isn't unusual for my daughter to arrive at school by 8 am and leave at 6pm. Tonight for example she is doing a 2 hour session helping some kids catch up with the rest of their year.

Call the school and ask for a call from the teacher giving phone numbers, work,mobile or home for the evening, and ask when she can call you. I have been a working mum and have four kids and sometimes you have to work round things, sometimes you have to make time but whatever happens and however you do it you need to talk to the teacher.

I'm on my third DC op and I think we start them at school far too young in the country, she is a baby, she will find her feet eventually. My 3 yo is due to start school next September and I have been around all the little village schools in our area and made sure that she is in a small informal class, easy does it. My older children went to primal in Canada, they were still doing half days in Kindergarten until they were six.

I would make an appointment with the head to discuss your concerns.

In this country.

You did entirely the right thing accepting the referral, because there is no harm in checking things out.

The teacher should have had more contact with you in my opinion, but such is the life of a busy teacher and a busy parent - it was not handled well, but it can be handled much better from now on, with regular updates either by phone at lunchtime, in a contact book (you can write messages to each other in it, to be viewed in the morning or afternoon at drop off and pick up).

I would also look at taking a little time off work to book an appointment with the teacher, school nurse and SENCO to get a proper overview of the issues, and what they are currently doing to help.

She might benefit from a referral to an Educational Psychologist as well, who would observe in the classroom and give tips to the teacher on how best to help your daughter with her transition to full time education (this has worked really well with my August born reception year daughter who is also difficult to keep on task when she does not like the task, or difficult to get to move on from a task she is loving, and struggles with 3 part instructions / gets upset at "odd" things, like being bustled about when she is trying to get her coat or shoes on in the crowded cloakroom or having to do partner work with a child she is currently not getting on with).

IF she has SEN and is diagnosed the words aren't some "label" to aid bullies but a tool to gain support with her learning to help her learn to her fullest potential. It's not some kind of stigma. I know it must be a shock but I would listen to the teachers.

Yes she could be tired. I assume the other kids will also be tired though

I'm a bit surprised at the referral straight from school to a paediatrician, though- is that usual in some areas? It isn't in ours.....

I of course can't diagnose anything.

"I am worried she is going to get a label of special needs stuck on her which the "normal " kids will bully her for" is a bit harsh. She won't be "not normal" if she needs some support.

It's not harsh...it's natural fear Fanjo. OP is from a country where much less pressure is put on children this young.

Yes, I thought "I am worried she is going to get a label of special needs stuck on her which the "normal " kids will bully her for" was a little uncalled for too. But put it down to the OP not quite understanding how things work.........

My spring born 4yo needs a nap after school because she is just knackered, if she had to do before and asc too she'd be on her last leg. The best thing you could do for her atm is to sort out your wrap around childcare, maybe a nanny or childminder, where she can go home/to a house and either nap or just rest.