to have felt un-Christian about this mobile phone?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I have had an beautiful weekend, so I'm really not seething with anger, but wondered what you would make of this!

Earlier today I was at a church service for Advent, with a choir who'd trained very hard. They were excellent, and some of them are children, so it's hard work. The service begins almost completely in darkness, then as the choir progress very slowly up the church, lights come on level with them, until eventually the whole church is lit up. It's meant to represent the light of Christ coming into the world, so it's not just a pretty effect - if you're religious, it is something that has liturgical meaning.

The order of service explained that, because of the darkness, it would sometimes not be possible to read the booklet. We were all in there for at least 20 minutes before the service began, so plenty of time to read the note telling you about this before the lights dimmed, and in any case, we'd all been told weeks ago that the service was partly in the dark.

There was very little congregation participation, but there were two hymns we sung while it was still quite dark. A bloke near me took out his mobile phone and turned on the light, flashing it around, and used it as a torch to read the hymns.

Would you think this was both rude, and actually quite disrespectful? I really thought it was.

And you stress that it was a liturgical presentation rather than a concert, which is why it annoyed you so much.

If someone claps between symphonic movements at a concert, I glare and tut like no-one's business but at church I would never dream of it. Not my job, not your job, be humble, be tolerant.

I thought you were going to say that someone's phone went off. perhaps the hymns needed to be on an overhead projector or whiteboard.

Oh, orange- how intuitive you are!

I would be seriously angry if I was Jeanne. I think phone guy was seriously out of order. But I'm not Christian, so obviously I don't understand about tolerance or understanding or any of those things that only Christians get.........

Hakluyt - but the man was trying to do the right thing, no? He knew he was expected to sing, so he used a small torch to help read the words. Not ideal, but if one or two people made this mistake I don't think it ruins it for anyone, they are contributing to the collective worship as best they can. I don't think he would realise that it would be so noticeable to other people around him or disruptive to the ritual, I think he was trying his best to sing the hymn and worship. How is that bad manners?

"Hakluyt - but the man was trying to do the right thing, no? He knew he was expected to sing, so he used a small torch to help read the words"

If he was a child, then yes. If he was an adult, then no.

I just can't believe he did it maliciously though. I would have cringed and thought 'oh no please realise, please turn it off' but I wouldn't think he had deliberately done it to flout convention or rules or anything. Ignorance isn't a sin.

I don't think anyone imagines he did it deliberately, or that such a tiny thing was a 'sin'.

I just don't follow what you're reading into the thread, make.

orange, no, I'm not angry. Really not.

Ok, what's your point then? You were irritated by him and know you are being neither unchristian not unreasonable in feeling that way?

I would suggest this thread was an error of judgement on your part, if so.

You are wrong, but fail to realise or admit it.

Meals and hospitality would ideally be warm and welcoming. What feels welcoming differs according to individual style.
Personally I like semi-formal dining in that I am most comfortable in a calm environment where people pass things before they tuck in, use cutlery, and say please and thank you.
I know that some people would find a complicated place setting intimidating (I do not, I find it soothing and reassuring) and if I found myself sitting next to someone like that I would do my best to make them feel at home.
If I found myself next to someone who ignored all hints and examples about cutlery and grabbed my fork because it was nearer, or reached into the serving dish with his hands, it would rather spoil my enjoyment of my dinner.
That doesnt mean I am ungenerous or have no idea how to share.
If the person was a small child or genuinely couldn't be expected to know better I would of course not blame them. But it would still be hard for me to enjoy an elegant dinner so much when someone else had had their sticky hands in the vegetables and then started crawing under the table.

it is that simple. the act of using the light changes the experience, an experience we can assume everyone present had chosen and been denied. to want that experience is not to deny others the experience they would prefer. If I lay a table with 3 forks and 4 knives each, it doesn't stop anyone who would prefer from going to MacDonalds and eating with their hands.

You say you don't think he did it deliberately - but earlier in the thread you say 'it was part of the liturgy, and that had been explained, and he decided that didn't matter and it was more important he should ignore what we'd been asked to do'.

Either he did it as a deliberate disruptive act, or it was an error. YANBU to be upset by the situation caused, but YABU to blame and focus on him and his actions. See it as human fault and try to be more generous.

Oh, and I missed this:

You have repeatedly stressed that for you, collective worship is important and requires everyone to be doing the same, correct thing.

Nope. Sorry. You've misread the thread. As I said multiple times, many people do different things. Our role was standing in the dark; other people were in the light at the far end; later on, we got the light bit. I've also pointed out that plenty of mistakes/involuntary things wouldn't matter - obviously, people do distracting things all the time, like coughing or singing out of tune or knocking things over, or saying the wrong response or, as dawn says, making verbal tics or similar.

None of that matters.

If one person in the room (who by all accounts was worshipping in his own way

Erm, no. Sorry. You believe he was worshipping in his own way. And you may be right. But I don't believe that was the case, and have said so.

How would you feel if you did something unwittingly wrong during collective worship and then discovered people were annoyed with you for it?

Erm ... sorry?

It is this judgemental attitude that stops so many people going to church. All the spiel about accepting imperfections, but for too many churches there are views like yours held by long standing members of the congregation and doesn't everyone get to know, if a newcomer makes an error of judgement.

As I said, I have never attended a service here before.

You don't believe he was worshipping in his own way? What do you think he was doing?

Ah, no, sorry. I meant, I did not think he deliberately set out to 'sin'. I find that a really bizarre idea of yours.

I am really curious that you have this very clear interpretation of what everyone must do - but there's no room for another kind of worship, even just once a year?

I think he was doing what I said I think he was doing before, make. Do you think that's implausible?

I think the meal analogy is a good one because if you feel a little out of your depth, but watch and pay attention, you won't do anything that would stand out amongst normal well mannered people, who are basically well disposed towards you and recognise all attempts to you make to fit in even if you aren't precisely following some arcane protocol. There is a difference between having some Lady Bracknell fit of the vapours at some trivial breach of labyrinthine etiquette (which people are pretending to think is what is happening here) and a sense of irritation at someone who just couldn't be bothered to look around, observe the ambience and generally fit into the spirit of the occasion (which isn't like using the wrong fork, more like grabbing a dish before everyone else and shoving it all their face while everyone else is politely offering things round)

Lol! I have a clear interpretation or how others should behave?!

I go to church to worship in my own way and enjoy being with others who are also doing so. I do not want to feel like I am being judged by my fellow worshippers. I feel very uncomfortable when judgements like yours are made upon people with good intentions.

You, however, have proven yourself to be very firm on how other people should behave if it is going to negatively impact your worship experience.

Why did you post? What were you looking for, fellow tutters?

But you do, though, make.

I went to a service, and someone did something that meant that mode of worship didn't work. Ok, sure, not the end of the world and it was still a very beautiful service.

You believe that, by posting about this on MN - not by saying anything or doing anything during the service, but just by expressing the wish that my form of worship had been able to continue - I'm doing something terrible, and I should be made to cease all such activities.

How would you feel if someone came into your church, and prevented you from worshipping as you choose, because they claimed to feel excluded by it? What would you do? Would you politely let them get on with doing things their way, or would you want to talk about it and work out why people feel differently?

My 'way of worshipping' doesn't dictate how other worshippers behave. That's the difference.

Look, he made a huge faux pas. I just think your reaction is both unchristian and unreasonable, and you don't recognise it as such despite asking that very question.

Really?

You've cracked it, the one way of worshipping that means everyone is included?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. I don't think it's even possible.

He behaved like a mannerless git. There is no other conclusion to be drawn.

your way of worshipping precludes the respectful practice of ancient traditions because someone might prefer to dick about with his phone rather than just stay still and see what happens next

I'm just trying to imagine even the music ... the way you'll be playing Make me a channel of your peace for hak's nemeses, and simultaneously doing acapella chant for the Eastern Rite folks, while over the top of that you've got medieval carols like 'Adam Lay' for me ...wow. It must be quite something, getting everything included so no one is excluded.

Or, of course, maybe you just exclude people anyway, and don't realize you're doing it?

How does it work with the disagreements over Real Presence? It would be blasphemous to speculate but I think, if you're being truthful that your mode of worship doesn't dictate to anyone, that you've just reduced Jesus to Schroedinger's cat.

Why oh why do liberals so pigheadedly refuse to see that the exercise of every liberty is an impingement upon someone else's, and the only fair thing to do is to make space for everything, which means that no individual gets all the space in the world, to, for instance, dick about with their phones in?