to have felt un-Christian about this mobile phone?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I have had an beautiful weekend, so I'm really not seething with anger, but wondered what you would make of this!

Earlier today I was at a church service for Advent, with a choir who'd trained very hard. They were excellent, and some of them are children, so it's hard work. The service begins almost completely in darkness, then as the choir progress very slowly up the church, lights come on level with them, until eventually the whole church is lit up. It's meant to represent the light of Christ coming into the world, so it's not just a pretty effect - if you're religious, it is something that has liturgical meaning.

The order of service explained that, because of the darkness, it would sometimes not be possible to read the booklet. We were all in there for at least 20 minutes before the service began, so plenty of time to read the note telling you about this before the lights dimmed, and in any case, we'd all been told weeks ago that the service was partly in the dark.

There was very little congregation participation, but there were two hymns we sung while it was still quite dark. A bloke near me took out his mobile phone and turned on the light, flashing it around, and used it as a torch to read the hymns.

Would you think this was both rude, and actually quite disrespectful? I really thought it was.

dawn - oddly enough, because I'm religious. You may not like the kind of service I like, but that doesn't mean my way is inferior or should be disrespected.

elec - never implied you were thick.

I wasn't in any way disrespecting you Jeanne. I was asking a question. I would be wary of your church, however. I imagine my son with his tics and constant movement would distress you and make you feel 'unchristian'.
I don't go to church and I'm not entirely sure what my feelings are. I was brought up a Catholic, so to me, church is full of intolerant folk who go to church on a sunday and then are judgemental and not particularly pleasant the rest of the week. My dd went, for a while to a Catholic School. She too was picked on in church for her tics. Can you see why I don't think you are being tolerant? My opinion on this thread is that you are being Really Bloody Unreasonable. Look to yourself and leave others alone. Is it really more important to defend your position than to be tolerant of the decision of another in a small environment in which it did not have a life or death impact upon the situation?

Why do you think she goes to church Dawn? Or is that just some silly attempt to make out that anyone who gets irritated by another person's behaviour at a religious ceremony obviously shouldn't be there because obviously they're not very religious or Christian or tolerant and obviously anyone who goes to church is some kind of beaming saint who never gets annoyed by rudeness from others?

And I think most people can tell the difference between something like tics which are not controllable and someone using a mobile phone at a ceremony.

jeanne i didnt imply you were implying i was thick....

i had to look the word up - never heard it before and my defence is as a devout atheist i have never come across it. the thick bit was a bit of humour......

Yes, most people can tell the difference, but it doesn't make them any more tolerant, Falling.
And whilst I can see bad manners are a tad irritating, I personally think that in church is perhaps a place where one could thing, a silly sod, or perhaps he has a sight problem, without judging or feeling the need to pass comment, even if on the internet.

Can you see why I don't think you are being tolerant?

No. Because you've decided, for no reason, to pretend you don't know why I go to church. That's pretty intolerant, too.

I wouldn't mind your child's tics. I'm not actually an arsehole. Sorry to disappoint you.

Interesting that some of the people accusing the OP and the Church of being intolerant also come across as being intolerant of religion.
OP YANBU, it shouldn't have to be announced that people shouldn't use their phones in Church. However I think perhaps all the songs the congregation were to join in with should have been kept until after the lights went up.

Afraid I am always on the side of clueless newbies in situations like this. He used the phone to engage with the worship, not to check his Facebook for Christ's sake.

Perhaps in his tradition it is liturgically important to understand and meditate on the sung text, in the way people often read the Bible readings themselves even though they are being read out.

Maybe he had impaired hearing and wanted to be able to follow the service.

I also wonder whether it was the fact it was a mobile phone that made this jar particularly - whether its modernity and the cliche of phones intruding into inappropriate contexts primed you to be particularly annoyed by the fact it was a phone.

If he'd lit a taper in order to see, would you have been quite so annoyed?

I agree with Eustacia. Not getting at any one poster, but there has been a snide undercurrent to some of the posts on here and some overtly unpleasant ones about religion and religious people.

I am not intolerant of religion per se, I am intolerant of people that use it as an excuse to be intolerant. You try sitting through a carol service with someone with echolalia, Falling. You've already complained about people humming along etc.
Jeanne I didn't say you were an arsehole.

Yes, Dawn at a carol service being sung by a choir with the congregation coming along to listen to carols, it is inconsiderate for people to talk and hum along to the carols. The service I was talking about was one where the congregation were invited to come along to listen to the carols. It was not an ordinary Sunday service where everyone joins in.
And no one is using religion as an 'excuse to be intolerant'. Some of us are pointing out that just because people are in a church it doesn't mean that anything goes.
And I have never ever heard anyone giving out about people with disabilities or conditions which entail sudden movements or gesticulations or sounds being in a Church. People can tell the difference between someone being inconsiderate and someone wanting to partake.

Tics can also be vocal.

i havent read the whole thread, however, i used to be a Chorister and we did this service every year.. really, the choir will not have noticed, we were always much, much too busy trying not to drop our candles, get burned on the wax, watch the younger choristers and see where we were going/what we were reading while progressing to the choir stalls.

If someone posted about going to a Jewish religious ceremony and seeing people disregarding aspects that were of religious significance just because it inconvenienced them momentarily what do you think the reaction would be? It would be all frothing about respecting cultures and religions and how the person ignoring the tradition was ignorant and VVVU and should educate themselves.

But because it's Christianity there is no obligation for people to educate themselves or behave with respect. And yes blah blah faith schools bishops in Parliament cry me a river Christians hold all the cards. But in fact this religious ritual deserves respect and an attempt to fit in just like any other, didn't get it, and MNers mostly seem to think that's fine.

OP, YANBU at all and I really don't understand why you are getting all these carping responses.

Yes, Dawn, that's why I included sudden 'sounds' in my post.

I don't agree at all with the 'if this were a Jewish celebration' at ALL.

You did, sorry, Falling

falling - seriously? On MN at least, Christians don't get the same 'we must be respectful of religion and culture' treatment as other religions at all.

Oh sorry, that was to DameDiazepam

OTheHuge That is complete nonsense. There are situations in which these things cannot be helped and the colour of religion has bugger all to do with it. That is UKIP nonsense.

rather than encourage them to sing a hymn they didn't know, from an order of service they couldn't see.

Yes, I agree this is very confusing.

Next time maybe they could make an announcement at the beginning and/or distribute the words of the hymns after the service. People do have varying degrees of sight in dark conditions, so it might not have been obvious that you weren't supposed to be able to see the words.

And I think the reaction would be at the same at a Jewish or Muslim ceremony - it's not that it's right to be disruptive or disrespectful, just that it sounds very confusing, and you have to take into account that some people confuse easily.