to have felt un-Christian about this mobile phone?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I have had an beautiful weekend, so I'm really not seething with anger, but wondered what you would make of this!

Earlier today I was at a church service for Advent, with a choir who'd trained very hard. They were excellent, and some of them are children, so it's hard work. The service begins almost completely in darkness, then as the choir progress very slowly up the church, lights come on level with them, until eventually the whole church is lit up. It's meant to represent the light of Christ coming into the world, so it's not just a pretty effect - if you're religious, it is something that has liturgical meaning.

The order of service explained that, because of the darkness, it would sometimes not be possible to read the booklet. We were all in there for at least 20 minutes before the service began, so plenty of time to read the note telling you about this before the lights dimmed, and in any case, we'd all been told weeks ago that the service was partly in the dark.

There was very little congregation participation, but there were two hymns we sung while it was still quite dark. A bloke near me took out his mobile phone and turned on the light, flashing it around, and used it as a torch to read the hymns.

Would you think this was both rude, and actually quite disrespectful? I really thought it was.

That's a shame. Because I am usually very vocal on issues which I think are important and serious, and which you are so offensively dismissive of.

And this was my post on this subject from earlier.

I'm an atheist but I would love the atmosphere and "performance" for want of a better word. And I would hate it if somebody turned a torch on because it would a)spoil the performance people had worked hard at producing and b)detract from the believer's experience

All this "you wouldn't say that if we were talking about Islam or Judaism" is utter, utter bollocks.

Good post spirit

But, spirit ... that all sounds lovely, and thanks for calling me intolerant in such a sweet way (I mean that).

But, but ... why is it ok for him to exclude me from a form of worship? Why have you decided I'm not an 'ordinary person' because I like that form of worship?

I don't, personally, believe in the kind of Jesus who'd just turn the lights on. I know lots of people do, and that's fine, and that's how they get close to God. But no, actually, I don't believe that. Sure, breaking down rules carried out for the sake of it is one aspect of his ministry; so too is clearing away ritual that had become alienating. But there is also plenty of ritual performed and instituted by Jesus, isn't there?

So where do you draw the line? Do you say, ok, I feel confident Jesus would have disliked this liturgy, and would have preferred the man singing to feel close to him? Or do you go on and say, well, this bread and wine business is a bit alienating too, I'm sure Jesus didn't really mean any of that stuff he said about it in the Bible?

I'm not mocking - I know there genuinely are Christian groups that would argue these things, and lots of people who struggle with it. But if you keep on insisting you know Jesus is only a populist, eventually, you end up with nothing from the Bible at all.

(Btw, it's a sign of my High Church-ness that I am cringing slightly writing about Jesus in this context! )

Spirit, I am not sure that you are necessarily right about the complete openness and tolerance you are describing. Don't forget that Jesus threw out the money lenders for instance; he several times took a very hard line against people disrespecting sacred space.

He wasn't into "phariseeism" - making a song and dance about piety without spiritual substance; but he expected everyone to do their absolute best to commit, and to show it.

WE have no way of knowing what Jesus woudl have done but I am wary of supposing everything was all "u're ok hun" with Jesus. He wasn't exactly "your temple your rules :)" was he? He was actually a very difficult person with very high standards of what he demanded of people. But only to their own personal limit. Everyone had to give of their best; no more, but certainly no less.

"But surely church is a place to welcome everyone?" Yes, everyone. And if for some reason they are not able to follow "rules" then they are still welcome. People who have no smart clothes are welcome in scruffy ones. People who can't sing in tune are welcome to sing out of tune. People who have for instance learning difficulties and don't know how / when to be quiet are welcome. But everyone is supposed to do their best and take it seriously.

x-posts with Jeanne

I am amused by 'your temple your rules'.

I do find it really interesting how differently different people on this thread see it.

Hak, I wonder if it is completely true you'd get the same responses for different religions? I don't personally buy the idea that Christianity is less tolerated than other religions - there are millions of ways in which it's hugely tolerated and promoted in the UK - but I do often think that many people expect to understand Christianity to a degree they don't seem to expect to understand (say) Hinduism if they're not Hindu. Though that is perhaps changing.

"People who can't sing in tune are welcome to sing out of tune"

One of the many reasons I could never be a Christian. If you kept the singing to a properly trained choir and Hymns A&M, the miusic to an organist of at least Grade 8 standard, and the readings to the King James, I might be tempted........

just another interjection, i loved that service.. the advent service, full of songs like 'People look East" and "adam lay ybounden"

almost as fun as the carol service.

hak, you would have loved this one, then. KJB readings - the best was a girl who was only 19/20 and she read so beautifully. Lots of lovely hymns and the organist is well over grade 8 standard.

We'll convert you yet.

striped - oooh, I love 'Adam Lay'. Beautiful. I'm a medievalist and so I like the sense that this isn't such a different experience from what they would have had. I think that might be partly why I feel so particular about it - because I spend a lot of time trying to get into the minds of very devout people living at a time when ritual was a bigger part of life?

But maybe that's pretentious and I'm just a curmudgeonly type.

oh, and in my experience of singing the advent service in several churches over my time.. its very unusual for there to be congregational hymns in the dark... its why the choir have candles, so we can see the book to sing from/see where we're going.

Being Head Chorister over a few years, i always had to lead the way behind the priest, and in our 900yr old church, it really wasn't much fun!

My church was very 'high church' so everything was very traditional and medieval, we didn't do modern 'happy clappy' stuff at all and we wore all the proper ruffs, robes and surplis get up.. and our medal ribbons (i was a bishops chorister, purple ribbon)

i think it depends what you're used to, i know i roped one of my methodist friends into coming the one year and she didnt like it at all, but she liked the music, she said it was much more atmospheric than their service.

Jeanne. You'd have to institute an immediate interdenominational ban on "Make Me a Channel of Your Peace" with excommunication or equivalent penalty for anyone so much as thinking of using it.............

Ha, it's your medievalism that's the problem then! If he'd lit a rushlight you wouldn't have minded

(Provided he'd used a flint and steel, of course, not matches or a lighter.)

Christianity is there for the non believers as much as for us who do believe - so on that basis I don't think we have the monopoly on how to worship and why I'm inclined to agree with Spirit lady.
Moving forward I think it would be worth discussing with your vicar or worship leader what happened. Let them know that it affected your experience and how can it be avoided in future?

striped - YY, I know people who get really het up about all sorts of High Church stuff. My granny would have (secretly) thought it came across as really Catholic and would have been mega-judgy. No nice polite comments about different ways of worship being equally valid from her.

countess - the rushlight would probably have stunk of pig fat. I did actually think that modern candles must be much less flickery than medieval ones, but I don't really know.

hak - which does not bloody scan! It drives me nuts!

tigger - so how come his form of worship is ok, but mine isn't? This is the question. Or to you and spirit, does mine not really count as a form of worship?

As I said upthread, there isn't really a 'vicar' in the normal sense because although I posted it's a church, it's really a chapel. So it's not something where next Sunday I'll be shaking hands with him at the end of a service and it'd be natural to chat. However, I know his daughter and I'm going to ask her if they ever thought of putting the warnings in the programme a bit more explicitly, as people said upthread.

If people are confused, would it be worth having an announcement at the beginning too?

Could it be that some people assume they don't have to look at the programme till you get to the singing bit?

I'm speak as someone easily irritated by people not sitting sensibly and doing the 'right' thing, but knowing there is going to be disruptions every week in services, I've had to learn to deal with how to still worship through that. To me, that is just one of the things that being a Christian is about. I'd probably still roll my eyes to my husband when hearing someone's mobile go off though....

The bloke would have annoyed me. But then I would have been annoyed not to be able to see the words.

I'm easily annoyed.

What Jeanne is trying to point out (I think - sorry to put words in your mouth) that to adopt any given style is to make someone uncomfortable, and to adopt a position that is more favourable to some than to others. There is no panacea, there is no "this is the style of worship that everyone is comfortable". Every time you pick route a, you close down route b. and that might be the way some people want / need to go.

In certain disciplines - music, sport, martial arts - there are huge successes in attracting disaffected teenagers and changing their prospects. Not all disaffected teenagers, obv. Only a certain number of people like / are talented in music, dance, karate, etc. BUT, if you are, the respect that is accorded to you by tutors and environments that demand a certain level of commitment and certain quasi-professional attitude, is incredibly refreshing and empowering. When you are used to being patronised, talked down to, having things weakened and sanitised because you are supposed not to be up to the real deal (say you are in the bottom sets at school where well meaning teachers think they can engage you by making everything easier) it is like a light bulb going off to have some uncompromising professional say "I see you. I see your talent. I see your capability. and THIS is what I expect of you. Like an adult. Like a pro. And THIS is the respect I give you in return."

Either you get on with this attitude, or you don't. But if you don't, then the floppy, anything-goes-ness of liberal soppines is incredibly alienating.

Christianity is for everyone; but everyone at their best. their best. It is not for me to say what your best is. But I know what my best is and nothing less is good enough.

About that he couldn't see the words. Some people would have known them by heart. Others could just accept for 5 minutes that it wasn't all about them. flashing lights about to make sure that you aren't forced to close your mouth for a moment is what is so annoying about this.

Perhaps he was trying to make sure he did the right thing by trying to see what was happening next on the programme?

This whole thread is so sad, the op says he was looking at the programme not sitting there googling. Perhaps next year he will know what's going on and won't feel the need to use his phone.

I can imagine my grandad telling us he went to church and it suddenly went so dark he hadn't got a clue what was happening and so he whipped his phone out to check the programme.

Mean spirited- that is quite possibly the most unchristian thing on this thread imo.

mean - yes, thanks for that post, I think I agree with a lot of that. Interesting comparison with sport - because I was thinking that sort of thing too. Some people like the idea of participating in a team game and other people hate it. I actually hate team games but I like communal worship where everyone plays different but complementary roles.

dame - but - and I'm sorry to repeat this, I know I've said it a lot but I can't tell if you missed it or just think it's not true - your 'grandad' would have received tickets telling him about this beforehand. He would then have been told again in the programme he had 20-plus minutes to read.

It wasn't 'sudden,' either. As I said, the choir progress very slowly up the church. There was plenty of time to realize that all the warnings we'd had that it might be dark and you might not be able to read, had been made for a reason.

As I said upthread, most people near us were just standing quietly. You would not have felt unusual not to be singing.