to have felt un-Christian about this mobile phone?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I have had an beautiful weekend, so I'm really not seething with anger, but wondered what you would make of this!

Earlier today I was at a church service for Advent, with a choir who'd trained very hard. They were excellent, and some of them are children, so it's hard work. The service begins almost completely in darkness, then as the choir progress very slowly up the church, lights come on level with them, until eventually the whole church is lit up. It's meant to represent the light of Christ coming into the world, so it's not just a pretty effect - if you're religious, it is something that has liturgical meaning.

The order of service explained that, because of the darkness, it would sometimes not be possible to read the booklet. We were all in there for at least 20 minutes before the service began, so plenty of time to read the note telling you about this before the lights dimmed, and in any case, we'd all been told weeks ago that the service was partly in the dark.

There was very little congregation participation, but there were two hymns we sung while it was still quite dark. A bloke near me took out his mobile phone and turned on the light, flashing it around, and used it as a torch to read the hymns.

Would you think this was both rude, and actually quite disrespectful? I really thought it was.

Oh well, I live up to my name then!

Seriously though, I have no patience with people who have to make a song and dance about not not knowing what is going on. Why not just sit quietly and wait to find out? This annoys me in one context or another about once a week: people hissing at you in meetings, demanding to be spoon fed information, while you are missing out on what information someone is actually delivering. What about some humility?

It's interesting too, isn't it, that some religions have really well-known meditative structures, but not so much Christianity? It's rare to come across people who talk about Christian worship or prayer as any kind of physical and mental discipline, outside of monasteries or retreats or things.

mean, to be fair, I don't think he was making a song and dance. I honestly think he reckoned it was basically like a concert to him, therefore the religious side was optional.

I must say I'm enjoying the somewhat irony of arguing about being in the dark and how this selfish man ruined it by turning a small light on. I thought Jesus was about accepting everybody and not judging

I'm enjoying the irony of the fact someone (and me, but someone else too) has already commented that Jesus wasn't, in fact, a Brownie Guide Leader and did, on occasion, judge people's behaviour in temple.

But you'd have to read the thread to find it, it's a little way back.

(Actually, neither example is remotely 'ironic' IMO, but mine's just as 'ironic' as yours. The word you're looking for might be 'snide'? Mine was. )

Yes, I think it is very interesting that we teach Christianity so badly that the spiritual practice of meditation is pretty much thought to belong to Eastern religions, and many adults who had a basic "soft" Christian upbringing as children, come to it as new thing in adulthood presented in a non-Christian context.

Sunday schools barely include any worship, any of the practice of prayer or being in the presence of god. It is all RE style stuff.

Teenagers, who have plenty of angst, as a generalisation, would massively benefit from being taught religion in a way that placed more emphasis on the personal spiritual benefits of tending your soul. (or maybe they are being taught that nowadays - I don't know. I am ancient)

Anyway yes I see what you mean about that guy not being aware that he was making a song and dance. But the business of being quiet and listening - "be still and know that I am god" - listening with your being not just your ears - is what didn't occur to him. and people (not just in a spiritual context, but in general) who don't know how to listen, muck up everyone else's listening.

AT work people are always asking me things. The only reason I know them is because I listen. And don't think I know everything already. And know how to SHUT UP for five minutes about everything I DON'T GET, because someone might be on the verge of explaining it. yet, the very people who come to me because they assume I know things, are half the time talking over the person who is explaining the thing. It drives me nuts. just SIT STILL and BE QUIET

The only thing to do ever in a Church service when something irritates or distracts you is to thank God for the opportunity to practise patience and tolerance and offer it up!

Not to start a thread about it on MN and offer that up?!

Yes Jesus did judge people's behaviour in the temple. Actually Jesus was quite cross at the Pharisees for putting liturgy and law over people

Matthew 10:34
""Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Messing with the status quo makes harsh demands on people and messes with their habitual loyalties
It's not a woolly liberal position

Jeanne
There will always be a twat checking their phone or loud parenting or feeding their child quavers or singing very loudly and badly or sniffing or glaring at babies or jingling their coins or dropping their hymn book.
You can't chance their behaviour but you can choose to ignore it.
Don't become a Church warden!

My word. You sound so, so judgemental and yes, unchristian.

I saw the title of your thread and began reading it , assuming that you were looking to be talked down from your place of anger and irritation to find love and acceptance of this man, who you know nothing about, who came to worship. He didn't understand the particular traditions of this particular service? So what?

You are of a kind of people I struggle with. You want to be a part of collective worship but it is so easy for it to be ruined for you by the error of one person? I feel sad for you because you must spend too much time feeling irritated, angry and frustrated at other people and their minor effects upon you.

As a previous poster said, please take this opportunity to practise tolerance, acceptance and yes, love for those people we find most difficult for it is them who challenge our selves the most.

Pray for him, don't judge him - it's not your job.

pea, have you read about the moneylenders in the temple? Someone mentioned it upthread.

make - where on earth did you get the idea anything was ruined for me?

I won't pray for him. I think that's massively patronizing, TBH.

I don't need to be talked down from my anger because I'm not angry. The only thing that's made me close to angry on this thread has been the implication that my faith is less worthwhile or genuine than other people's on this thread, cos I think that's a bit rude to say.

Oh yes I have read all about it. Overthrew the tables and everything. Mainly because they were making profit from people coming to buy sacrifices etc for their trip to the temple and therefore missing the whole point of forgiveness and the purpose of the temple.

Do you stand by your thread title? Because you should as a Christian recognise that how you are feeling towards him, and about the disruption to the group worship the man caused - is wrong and unchristian and you should try to change your feelings about it. You are being very defensive of the collective worship being utterly perfect - and as a couple of previous posters have pointed out, that's not how humans work and Jesus recognised this. I love the sound of the service but I also believe Jesus would have turned the lights on if he felt people like you were judging the man.

If you think it's ok to feel this way - change your thread title. But I think your thread title is spot on.

Tolerance, acceptance and love for your neighbour are the key things here and far more important than ritual. The advent service you describe is a far cry from bread and wine being shared , the simplest communal act Jesus could bestow.

If a cell phone is going to distract a person's faith in God or detract from his message, it's not the phone that's the problem.

There doesn't need to be some elaborate ceremony to worship. Before the churches were established and bibles written, people just met in houses and talked about Christianity and it's lessons.

The point of a ceremony is for the congregation to get something out of it and take the word of god into their hearts. If a man needs to turn on a light to do that and feel involved in his faith, then more power to him. I would think you'd want people to actively participate in their faith instead of sitting their buts in a seat and turning off their brain for an hour or so.

make - the thread title was tongue in cheek. I'm sorry you're upset by it.

But, you know, ritual is important to some of us. You don't get to define Christianity and exclude people like me just because you feel convinced you're right. Nor do I get to exclude you. Therefore, sometimes, we have impasse.

I am not excluding you. You are free to worship however you wish. But not to dictate to others how they worship.

Don't you see that your preference is for everyone to worship the way you do? Whereas mine is for everyone to worship the way that is right for them?

You can't dictate the way others worship without being exclusionary.

I thought we were in agreement that the way you feel about this man was unchristian.

But you now call your thread title 'tongue in cheek' which suggests you feel you are behaving in a Christian way and don't repent your anger one bit. It beggars belief tbh.

You started your thread with "I have had an beautiful weekend, so I'm really not seething with anger, but wondered what you would make of this!"

As far as I can read from the comments you have made about other posters' points, you are actually "seething with anger".

And "seething with anger" about something that is so trivial and esoteric to your set of beleifs about "liturgy" that none of the rest of mere mortals can possibly understand.

What actually happened?

A congregation were given pre-warning of a service in the dark.
A service took place with singing in the dark.
A man lit a torch on his phone so that he could see the hymns to join in.
You are seething.

What would Jesus say?

I rest my case m'lud.

make, how am I dictating?

You are telling me that merely by expressing my preference, I am excluding someone. And you are telling me it is perfectly fine for someone to prevent me from worshipping as I would like.

But you think you're not 'dictating'?

And, I have said before - I'm not angry. Sorry if you misunderstood the thread title and thought I must be angry, but I'm not.

But he's not excluding from worship you by using his phone.

If you're too distracted to worship or enjoy the message of the service, you've got more problems than a man with a phone.

You have repeatedly stressed that for you, collective worship is important and requires everyone to be doing the same, correct thing. If one person in the room (who by all accounts was worshipping in his own way, no reason to believe he was being arrogant, selfish or any of the other insults aimed at him on here) is worshipping slightly differently, it ruins your experience.

Can you accept that other people worshipping with you are not perfect and may make mistakes? How would you feel if you did something unwittingly wrong during collective worship and then discovered people were annoyed with you for it?

It is this judgemental attitude that stops so many people going to church. All the spiel about accepting imperfections, but for too many churches there are views like yours held by long standing members of the congregation and doesn't everyone get to know, if a newcomer makes an error of judgement.

You know- I don't think this is anything to do with worship. I think it's about manners. If you are going to an event, and you are told that some of it will be in darkness- then you don't turn your torch on. I don't think there is anything more to say.

I beg to differ- I think you ARE angry Jeanne but you are pretending to be "insterested" in the hope that somene might share your anger. And we (in the main) don't share it, nor even undertand it. Worship is not theatre, it does not happen according to prescribed stage directions and again, I ask you. WWJS?