To think you can't just trundle along at any old speed you fancy...

[TallulahTwinkletoes]

I fully expect to get flamed for this because I know I'm a tad over the top about this but it's my pet hate so here goes.

If say be gentle but I know this is the wrong place for that

I drive a lot. Every day I drive on a road that's technically a country road as there are fields either side but it's more than wide enough and not too windy. This road is followed by two straight roads. These are all national speed limit roads.

This is comfortably attainable with a few corners on the country road where 50 is a better speed. Obviously various weathers call for different speeds. I was behind a double decker bus doing 50 down there today.

The last few days I have been stuck behind people doing 35-40. Today the lady flashed at me when I finally get chance to overtake.

They way I see it is if you are driving so slow on the roads either
A) you are unaware of the speed limit/unable to follow basic road signs and therefore shouldn't be driving
B) do not feel comfortable driving at an appropriate limit for the road and therefore shouldn't be driving.

I know it's a limit not a target but you fail your driving test if you 'fail to progress' so they shouldn't be driving like this.

It's the principle that they don't care about anyone's time frame or how they affect other people. They just trundle along deciding what speed they want to go at and not giving a fuck.

We all have bad days where we mess up roundabouts and misjudge but Jesus Christ, if you can't drive at 60 in a straight line...

You are wrong, Tiggy.
Rule 133 explicitly asks that you do not cause the driver behind to alter speed or to alter course. If maintaining the two second rule means the driver behind must brake or slow down by lifting the accelerator a bit then the slower driver has caused her to alter speed. Yes, you must drive at a safe speed. But so does the slow driver, and there is nothing magical about slowness that trumps all the other rules.

You can't pull out to pass at 55 mph and blithely expect the traffic in the overtaking lane to accommodate itself to your speed on the basis that rule 126 insists drivers leave enough space to stop. You as the newcomer into the passing lane must drive fast enough to prevent the sort of braking or course alteration on the part of drivers in the passing lane that results in crashes and hazardous situations.

Of course rule 133 is not about general driving. But it is not about a split second either. It is about the duration of your temporary drive in the passing lane. If you are passing a convoy of container lorries or several slower moving vehicles you are going to be in the passing lane for a few minutes at least, and if there is already traffic there you must get up to speed, because if you are passing and can't pull over to the left lane, then they can't either. They must alter their speed to avoid hitting you.

If all you are passing is one vehicle then you would immediately nip back to the left lane, and if you have observed the protocol about pulling out (observe, indicate, pull out only when safe) then you would not have a car right behind you, and the language in rule 133 about causing cars behind you to alter speed or course would be unnecessary. Rule 133 therefore envisions situations where there would be several vehicles in the passing lane, one behind the other.

110 mph is a red herring.
If you were deciding to overtake and saw someone approaching that fast you should stay put. And you would see them because they would be making very fast progress and you would do more than a cursory look in the mirror before indicating and pulling out, right?

If you are perfectly justified in doing any speed under the speed limit when you pull out to pass then why does www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/overtaking-267-to-269 as that you check teh speed of oncoming traffic in the passing lane?

You are required by rule 133 not to cause a driver behind you to alter course or to alter speed when you are overtaking. It is very clear that the onus is on you to match the speed of traffic already there. If you do not you will cause alteration of speed or course.

If you are in a lorry with speed limited to 60 then you have no business being in any lane but the slowest lane unless you are passing.
www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/lane-discipline-264-to-266:
'264
'You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking. '

You would only be passing after extremely careful checking that there is no traffic in the passing lane because you know you can't go over 60 and you do not want to transgress rule 133 and cause a chain reaction pile up.
There is no way someone could be coming up on your inside lane if you were in a lorry obeying the rules.

Danger of slow speeds in passing lanes aka lane hogging. Slower speed in passing lanes is a danger. It causes frustrating tailbacks and frustration on the part of drivers who are correctly driving in the left lane. Drivers who are overtaking are forced to brake or change lanes when they come upon you. Entering the passing lane at a speed lower than general speed there, and maintaining that lower speed for the duration of your overtaking manouver is a form of lane hogging.

If people are going to keep on misinterpreting that rule and accuse me of misinterpreting it, willfully or otherwise, then I am probably going to refer to it when I respond to point out what it really means. Sorry if my style is clunky.

Here is the answer to your questions:
So if I'm driving a lorry, speed limited to 60, and someone approaches me in the inside lane at 70 what am I supposed to do?
Short answer- You are going to get a ticket if you are driving a lorry in the second lane unless you are passing.
Long answer - If you are in the second lane and someone comes up on your inside because you are not overtaking but just hogging the second lane, then you let them go. They are undertaking you because you are in the wrong lane and they can't get past you any other way. Hogging the second lane while driving under the higher speed limit for other vehicles has caused a hazard.
What you should do after they go past is pull into the left lane and stay there until you need to overtake, after due precautions.
Full marks for noticing them to your left, but you should not be in the second lane.

Or do your special rules only apply to cars or to the other lanes?
Rules apply to all vehicles on the road. Lorries have a different speed limit. However, they are required to stay in the left lane except to overtake just as all other traffic is.
On a motorway, all traffic is supposed to drive in the left lane except to overtake.

When overtaking, you are supposed to exercise caution and sound judgement as to traffic, weather and road conditions (roadwork ahead, obstacles that shouldn't be there such as branches, etc), and light conditions. You should also be aware of whether your car can drive as fast as you need it to go to overtake. If your car will take too long to accelerate or if you are not comfortable doing the necessary speed then stay in the left lane. If there is anything hindering you from necessary speed in the passing lane then stay put.

You check your mirrors to make sure you are not going to cut anyone off when you get into the passing lane and that you have time to get up to speed before passing lane traffic is upon you as you accelerate. You check your blind spot. You signal and prepare to accelerate, and if everything looks ok, out you go, faster than the traffic in the left lane, and also fast enough to maintain an even distance between you and whatever other traffic there may be coming up in the passing lane. You want to maintain this distance because if you are going slower than the rest of the traffic in the passing lane you are going to cause drivers behind you to brake or change course. Either way they are going to have to brake since changing course will force them into the left lane assuming there is some way they can squeeze in.

What if I'm in a car in the second lane overtaking lorries doing 60 and a car comes up behind me doing 110mph? According to your 'rules' I'm supposed to speed up to match this! Insane.
I've already answered this. You would not pull out to pass when you see someone coming up so fast -- and if someone was coming up that fast you would see them if you had looked and double checked, because their speed would mean they would be visible and getting moreso by the minute, by the second in fact. You would therefore wait until they go past. To pull out when someone is coming up on you so fast would extremely dangerous.

It doesn't matter that they are in the wrong and should slow down. Do not try teaching a lesson to people who are driving like maniacs. Let them past. Drive defensively.

Lost a chunk of that and can't retrieve it -- the gist was if you are already in the second lane and someone roars up behind you at 110 you pull into the left lane as soon as you see them in your rearview mirror because you appreciate they are moving very fast. You should glance at your rearview mirror as you drive just in order to keep abreast of developments behind you such as idiots who think they are F1 drivers. As soon as you identify the problem you try your best to pull in even if that means cutting someone off. You could speed up a bit if you can't pull in to give yourself time and options such as a space in the left lane a little bit ahead. Once in the left lane you would have to slow down quickly in either case.

Or you could try the hard shoulder to your right, or the median; those options might involve slowing as you pull over because of a rougher surface.

It may well be that you are a goner if you encounter someone going this fast and you can neither pull over or speed up. The least good option is speeding up significantly at least that might net you a place to get off the lane but it is still a good option if you end up alive as a result.

The only thing you shouldn't do is stay in the lane doing the speed limit, under any circumstances.

I think you explained it well on the whole, math.

I find that if I am in a hurry, everyone drives really slowly, or if I have all the time in the world, they are all idiots who drive too fast.

Or it could just be my frame of mine.

sorry, there is no way i would cut up another driver and cause a crash myself just to avoid a car behind me having to slow down
i also dont get your point about seeing them in the mirror before pulling out? if they are doing 110 as you say, they might be bloody miles away (well a mile or two) when you start to pull out. fast moving objects do seem to appear from nowhere as they are moving fast

Math how come you are ignoring the part of the highway code that explicitly states 70mph is an absolute maximum?

Sanfairyanne, can you not assess their approach and see they are going fast and best not to pull out?

And I doubt she's advocating cutting up other drivers. It's possible to pull in gently.

you cant necessarily judge their approach, no, because they are nowhere near you (literally a mile or more away if travelling at 110) when you might decide to pull out or be in the middle of overtaking. or they could be on a slip road and then charge up from behind at ridiculous speed

mathanxiety does mention cutting up other drivers

a speeding car still has braked. they have free will. they can choose to slow down or crash into you or change lane if there is one. only suicidal drivers choose the 'crash into you' option

Of course you can judge it. Either they are going fast or they are not.

Everyone should be aware of their surroundings so let's say car A is in the furthest right hand/fast lane. Car B is overtaking a lorry in the middle lane. Car C is driving like a bat out of hell in the furthest right hand lane. Car A and B will be aware of car C. Car A will indicate. Car B will either react to the indication or from seeing car C. Car B will then adjust his speed to allow Car A to move over safely.

Sorted. No issues. Everyone is safe.

errr no you cant, not if speeding car is out of sight, due to being so far away and moving so fast, or not even being on the road (eg on slip road)
110mph is pretty fast

Dual carriageways and motorways are generally straight. You'd see him for a long time before he affected you.

Slip road? No one does 110 up a slip road without great visibility.

This thread goes some way to explaining why there is such terrible, dangerous, driving to be seen on a daily basis, doesn't it?
Makes the case for obligatory re-testing to me. :-(

some of you obviously have better, straighter motorways and perhaps also slower drivers. perhaps also quieter roads. where i drive, esp where there is a lot going on like merging motorways, plus idiots swerving in and out of traffic, and yes, driving at ridiculous speeds on slip roads, it is perfectly possible not to have a mile or more visibility behind you before pulling out to overtake

drive to hull and you can see cars coming from about 10 miles away

Sanfairyann, that sounds like the sort of driving I am used to. Heavy and fast traffic, lots of entry and exits, and merging of motorways too, and rarely if ever do you get more than a minute or two of a gap for overtaking.

I still get the odd speed merchant taking advantage of a clear stretch, especially late at night, but since I take great care about overtaking checking twice in order to properly gauge traffic speed in the lane I want to enter I do see them approaching. The only drivers that are hard to see are those who weave quickly among lanes on a multi lane motorway. However, I can sometimes be aware of them behind me as I check my rearview mirror from time to time and I can decide to let them weave on past me before I go through the process of deciding to overtake. The decision to overtake shouldn't be a quick one.

Tiggy -- exactly, you can't just duck into the left lane if you see someone approaching far too fast behind you. You would run someone else off the road if you simply turned into the left lane without regard for drivers there already. Yes, you can speed up to get past the slow traffic you were overtaking safely in the first place.

If someone is doing an egregiously excessive speed you are in a life threatening situation and need to prioritise saving your life and those of others too. If there is a third lane then logically speaking, the maniac can probably switch lanes but you can't assume s/he will -- after all this driver is doing 110 so has clearly left reasonableness and rationality behind. You can't stay in your overtaking lane based on assumptions. You have to take evasive action based on the hazard that you actually see.

Sometimes there will only be two lanes and you have an even more limited choice.

Backinthering, because above all, common sense rules on the road. Just because 70 mph is the max doesn't mean you can drive safely up to 70 365 days and nights of the year, and the same goes for situations where you might be forced to do more than 70 to get out of danger and in order not to put others in danger. You can't doggedly do 70 or any point under 70 in a passing lane if traffic behind you in that lane is going faster. This is the whole point of rule 133, which asks that you do not cause other drivers to change course or change speed when you pull into their lane. You have to match your speed to the context, whatever that context may be. Context is everything when driving.

And someone who is doing 110 is going to need a lot of braking distance when (if) they see you in front of them. If they brake or change lanes to avoid you doing the speed limit they risk losing control of their vehicle, depending on weather and road conditions. If they are driving that badly, you can't assume they will brake safely or leave themselves enough time/mileage to slow down for you. You cannot afford to stand on principle.

That is easy, Osmiornica. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
The other driver overtakes and you stay in your proper lane, which is the driving lane. Other lanes are the passing lanes. Someone wishing to go faster than traffic in the driving lane needs to overtake and perhaps drive at 70 in the driving lane once she has passed you and returned to the driving lane.

My posts about rule 133 and the necessity to not cause other drivers to brake or change course were all about overtaking and etiquette in the passing lanes, which is what the rule is all about.

Ok this is going to get me flamed for aggression but I don't care.

Just to keep this going today I was at the other end if the spectrum. This guy starts following me in the thirty. He's close but not too close. The forty he's not close. The sixty, he may as well be in my car. Obv I am doing sixty but I think fuck it. If he's being a cunt, so will I. So I slow down. He gets closer. And closer. I'm hoping he's got the hint and I get back to sixty. So does he. Up my arse. So I slow down again and he's almost touching my boot.

So... I actually stop and get out. I probably looked like some kind of deranged bear but I scream what is your fucking problem. Back off. And he is terrified. Never seen someone reverse so fast. He can't overtake me at this point because even tho the road has been empty it suddenly has oncoming cars. So I get back in and go. He didn't tail gate again! Hopefully he won't for a while

My car is very much a grandads car and he will have assumed I was a man. Quite the surprise I think. I'm chuckling to myself.