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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Aibu too not understand the reaction of the Ferguson Michael Brown in the USA

534 replies

Natashathemum · 26/11/2014 18:32

My Dh thinks that it is a disgusting example of racial inequality in America. But i think having read a lot of articles/news that the police officer was only protecting himself. Although it is unfortunate that someone so young died.

However Dh feels strongly it is disgusting racism. He called me blind and crazy (lighthearted). Aibu for thinking this.

OP posts:
mwalimu · 28/11/2014 11:34

And that's your explanation is it, for believing that the black man wasn't the aggressor, didnt attack an armed policeman....stupidity?

That's not even the point. The point is it isn't even being investigated properly. The policeman isn't even charged/challenged. It doesn't matter if he shot unnecessarily. Everyone knows how black men can be, right?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/11/2014 11:44

there are millions of black Americans saying that racism is a key part of this specific case

Numerous people believing something doesn't automatically means it's correct. Countless people believe that MB was shot while running away or holding his hands up, with many insisting this "proved" police racism - but this wasn't right either, as evidence has apparently proved

I don't think anyone's denied that there have been incidents of real racism and miscarriages of justice, but instantly leaping to the conclusion that this must always be the case does nobody any favours

LongDistanceLove · 28/11/2014 12:00

FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) — Some witnesses said Michael Brown had been shot in the back. Another said he was face-down on the ground when officer Darren Wilson finished him off. Still others acknowledged changing their stories to fit published details about the autopsy or admitted that they did not see the shooting at all.

An Associated Press review of thousands of pages of grand jury documents reveals numerous examples of statements made during the shooting investigation that were inconsistent, fabricated or provably wrong. For one, the autopsies ultimately showed Brown was not struck by any bullets in his back.

Prosecutors exposed these inconsistencies before the jurors, which likely influenced their decision not to indict Wilson in Brown's death.

Bob McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor, said the grand jury had to weigh testimony that conflicted with physical evidence and conflicting statements by witnesses as it decided whether Wilson should face charges.

"Many witnesses to the shooting of Michael Brown made statements inconsistent with other statements they made and also conflicting with the physical evidence. Some were completely refuted by the physical evidence," McCulloch said.

The decision Monday not to charge Wilson with any crime set off more violent protests in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson and around the country, fueled by claims that the unarmed black 18-year-old was shot while surrendering to the white officer in the mostly African-American city.

What people thought were facts about the Aug. 9 shooting have become intertwined with what many see as abuses of power and racial inequality in America.

And media coverage of the shooting's aftermath made it into the grand jury proceedings. Before some witnesses testified, prosecutors showed jurors clips of the same people making statements on TV.

Their inconsistencies began almost immediately after the shooting, from people in the neighborhood, the friend walking with Brown during the encounter and even one woman who authorities suggested probably wasn't even at the scene at the time.

Jurors also were presented with dueling versions from Wilson and Dorian Johnson, who was walking with Brown during the Aug. 9 confrontation. Johnson painted Wilson as provoking the violence, while Wilson said Brown was the aggressor.

But Johnson also declared on TV, in a clip played for the grand jury, that Wilson fired at least one shot at his friend while Brown was running away: "It struck my friend in the back."

Johnson held to a variation of this description in his grand jury testimony, saying the shot caused Brown's body to "do like a jerking movement, not to where it looked like he got hit in his back, but I knew, it maybe could have grazed him, but he definitely made a jerking movement."

Other eyewitness accounts also were clearly wrong.

One woman, who said she was smoking a cigarette with a friend nearby, claimed she saw a second police officer in the passenger seat of Wilson's vehicle. When quizzed by a prosecutor, she elaborated: The officer was white, "middle age or young" and in uniform. She said she was positive there was a second officer — even though there was not.

Another woman testified that she saw Brown leaning through the officer's window "from his navel up," with his hand moving up and down, as if he were punching the officer. But when the same witness returned to testify again on another day, she said she suffers from mental disorder, has racist views and that she has trouble distinguishing the truth from things she had read online.

Prosecutors suggested the woman had fabricated the entire incident and was not even at the scene the day of the shooting.

Another witness had told the FBI after the shooting that he saw Wilson shoot Brown in the back and then stand over his prone body to finish him off. But in his grand jury testimony, this witness, acknowledged that he had not seen that part of the shooting, and that what he told the FBI was "based on me being where I'm from, and that can be the only assumption that I have."

The witness, who lives in the predominantly black neighborhood where Brown was killed, also acknowledged that he changed his story to fit details of the autopsy that he had learned about on TV.

"So it was after you learned that the things you said you saw couldn't have happened that way, then you changed your story about what you seen?" a prosecutor asserted.

"Yeah, to coincide with what really happened," the witness replied.

Another man, describing himself as a friend of Brown's, told a federal investigator that he heard the first gunshot, looked out his window and saw an officer with a gun drawn and Brown "on his knees with his hands in the air." He added: "I seen him shoot him in the head."

But when later pressed by the investigator, the friend said he had not seen the actual shooting because he was walking down the stairs at the time and instead had heard details from someone in the apartment complex.

"What you are saying you saw isn't forensically possible based on the evidence," the investigator told the friend.

Shortly after that, the friend asked if he could leave.

"I ain't feeling comfortable," he said.

_

Associated Press writers Michael Kunzelman, Catherine Lucey, Nomaan Merchant, Garance Burke, Jeff Donn, David B. Caruso and Paul Weber contributed to this report
bigstory.ap.org/article/078c82ad45ff4ec6aa1c7744dfa7df14/grand-jury-documents-rife-inconsistencies

Pangurban · 28/11/2014 12:11

mwalimu, so this case is about black men and not Michael Brown at all. That physical assault in the shop is about Michael Brown. Or is he not responsible for his physical attack on the shopkeeper. It was on camera, so no amount of equivocation can change the veracity of it. His companion even testified MB physically attacked the shopkeeper.

Pangurban · 28/11/2014 12:20

That's not about the shooting itself, of course. I am not party to the full information the grand jury had or if you can state rather than accuse the jury of being racist. I did post a link to the transcript of the grand jury, but don't know what else the trial entailed. But as people have denied or modified things that can't be disputed, I wouldn't automatically believe just anything the general public are throwing around.

I think they said the shop thing gave evidence of a general state of mind. Don't quote me on that.

Pangurban · 28/11/2014 12:21

or maybe it was character, don't remember.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/11/2014 12:41

But as people have denied or modified things that can't be disputed, I wouldn't automatically believe just anything the general public are throwing around

Precisely

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 12:54

The policeman did not know MB had robbed a shop, when he shot him

Do you think that shoplifting is justification for being shot 7 times, anyway?

Territt16 · 28/11/2014 13:05

No, but attacking and trying to take the gun from a police officer is a reason to get shot.

Pangurban · 28/11/2014 13:30

I said the physical assault perpetrated by Michael Brown on the shopkeeper (and the robbery, as you won't acknowledge the physical assault for what it was) was separate from the shooting. But it does show clearly that MB was a person who physically attacked another. Irrespective of what colour he was .

Before you accuse me of something I didn't say, I don't know if he attacked DW or if that is the reason DW shot him. But the cctv footage from the shop and testimony by his companion showed he could be a thug.

Before I'm accused of something else, I'm talking about Michael Brown. Not other people.

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 13:42

Right, so why are you even talking about the shop incident territ if its not relevant

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 13:49

And pang so you do think what happens in the shop justifies the shooting. He has demonstrated he was a thug already

The justice institutions have demonstrated time and time again that they are racist. It is well evidenced and documented. But you choose to disregard that insight into the mindset/culture of the perpetrator of this crime. Favouring to give creedance and voice to the defamation of the victims character

Pangurban · 28/11/2014 14:00

I don't what happened at that point. But the shop assault is not completely irrevelant. I believe there were statements saying MB was a gentle giant from his school. This is opinion and hearsay. The cctv is not and shows that it would not be outside MB's character to have attacked DW. I'm not saying he did, because I don't have a clue about that. It's not the robbery part of the shop incident that is pertinent to his character in relation how the shooting could possibly have played out, but the physical attack on the shopkeeper.

Have to go now.

Minus2seventy3 · 28/11/2014 14:02

mwalimbu - for defamation, there has to be an untruth.. There is video evidence of MB attacking the shop keeper.
You say there is evidence that demonstrates justice institutions are racist? I'm sure there is. I'll concede that. But, in this specific case, all the evidence backs up the officer's account.
No one on this board is saying racism doesn't exist. What a lot of us are saying, is that the specifics of this case do not support your view that this was a racist cop and a crime - numerous posts have linked reports, discussed the evidence rationally, put forward reasoned, coherent arguments to support this, yet you disregard all because MB was black, and the officer white.

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 14:22

In this specific case, the evidence does not back up the policemans version of events, at all

No conclusions can be drawn from the Evidence' that has been released. Its a mess.

Minus2seventy3 · 28/11/2014 14:56

Well, actually, the evidence can and does support the officer...
Blood inside the car and powder burns on MB's hand, and a bullet lodged in the door of the car lend weight (convincingly) to the assertion that MB was going for the officer's gun. The forensics, trajectories, and wounds on MB are consistent with the officer's version of events that he was being charged at the time of the fatal shots. They also completely dis-prove the allegation that he had his hands raised in a surrender stance, or was shot in the back. As LongDistance put earlier in the thread, many of the witnesses claiming that MB was shot while surrendering, or shot in the back, or "finished off" on the floor have proven unreliable witnesses, changed their stories, or admitted nit actually being there at all and making it up!
So yes, the evidence seems conclusive to me, but more importantly, to the twelve random men and women of the Grand Jury.
But you can't see that they may know more than you.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/11/2014 15:12

Sadly, it seems that to some it really doesn't matter that the jury had much more info than any of us ... for them the entire system's racist, there can be no other interpretation and that's that

As I mentioned, nobody with any sense would deny there have sometimes been injustices, just as we can hardly deny that some witnesses this time have also been wrong - but to suggest it means that this particular case must automatically be suspect seems to me to be worrying in the extreme

Any resolution of society's problems surely needs calm heads and rational thought, and I'm afraid that for me this just isn't it

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 15:23

Irrational, illogical, hysterical, stupid....all well used accusations, used for silencing when people speak out against racism, and sexism for that matter. Like I said, ive heard that a hundred times before

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/11/2014 15:35

Bigotry, racism, stereotyping, ignorance, fear - all well used accusations, used for silencing when people speak out against unreason - Like I said, I've heard that a hundred times before

Territt16 · 28/11/2014 16:13

mwalimu, what are you on about? i havent once spoken about the shop?

Territt16 · 28/11/2014 17:05

?

FreudiansSlipper · 28/11/2014 17:18

Puzzledandpissedof Bigotry, racism, stereotyping, ignorance, fear - all well used accusations

yes the are because they are very much part of society

anytime racism is called up on it will be shouted down because the power balance and that is being white is in the racists hands

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/11/2014 17:32

FreudiansSlipper you might have done better to quote what I said in full, instead of just using the bit which suited - as I'm sure you know, I referred to these terms being used to silence those speaking out against unreason

Where the same words are used to confront racism I fully support them, but feel free to twist things just as you want; as with the tired old phrase about power balance, it's your own position you're undermining

Last night Nicknacky invited the naming of anyone who's considered to have been provably racist on here; interesting that nobody's chosen to do so ...

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 18:35

Why do you think the town is rioting? What has possessed them to demonstrate in that way, repeatedly and for protracted periods of time? Damaging their own environment?
What is your explanation of that?
Are all those people 'unreasonable'? 'stupid'? 'irrayional'? Are they all seeing racism, where there blatantly isn't any? Why do you think people would do that? What is there to gain by taking offence on purpose?

mwalimu · 28/11/2014 18:38

Oh sorry territ maybe you didn't? You all sound the same..

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