To wish DD wasn't quite so friendly?

[ClawHandsIfYouBelieveInFreaks]

She's 6 and she's quite loud, confident and chatty. Unlike me. My older DD is very reserved and quiet so DD2 is a bit of a mystery to me at times.

She will talk to ANYONE with the same degree of open friendliness as she does her mates, her teachers and her family.

Today we got a bus and it was a long wait on a lonely stretch of road in a rural village. A man came along to wait also.

It was raining and the bus shelter offered the only protection...it was a wooden one...you know with three sides and an open front.

Anyway, this man came inside and began smoking roll ups which I cannot abide the smell of...not to mention there were two children in the shelter.

I decided to ignore this and stood at the edge with the DC so they weren't breathing it in.

DD immediately catches his eye and begins chatting to him and I turn to look and he's just filthy dirty and smells of unwashed person...his clothes were tidy and clean looking but his hands were black and he has dirty nails and as I said he smelled really bad...and he just had the air of someone I didn't want to chat with on a dark night down a bloody lane.

I don't know what to do about this? Should her instinct about who to talk to and who not to talk to be in place by now? She turns 7 in March...or am I being awful and should I celebrate my non-judgemental child? He was "alsright" but I was unnerved by him...you know how you just are by some people? My instincts had sort of kicked in and I didn't want to engage with him but there was DD telling him about her singing lessons.

Because of DD breaking the ice I HAD to!

You judge people based on appearance whether you want to admit it or not

Yes, I have to admit I do, but the well-developed instinct I have about wrong 'uns has absolutely nothing to do with that. I have an instinct that takes such an instant dislike to some people and I can't put my finger on it, but as often as not these are people whose physical appearance is to my taste, so it is not that and I am at least 90% right.

The OP's advice to her daughter is spot on in that sense. Trusting your instincts is a wonderful life-saver.

I have an instinct that takes such an instant dislike to some people and I can't put my finger on it, but as often as not these are people whose physical appearance is to my taste, so it is not that and I am at least 90% right.

Yes, physical appearance isn't everything but it is an important part of the big picture. Body language, voice tone, eye contact all factor in as well.

The OP's advice to her daughter is spot on in that sense. Trusting your instincts is a wonderful life-saver.

Right, and before I went off on this weird tangent, the problem is that OP's daughter has no instincts. Everyone is a friend to her, and that needs to be gently addressed in an age appropriate manner and not avoided because "she'll be teaching her daughter to judge based on appearances".

'If you are judging based outside of social norm, then you are also judging that if someone dresses to the social norm then they're probably fine and it's a non-issue to you.'

Exactly. Bad teeth, being overweight, wearing plaid trousers all within social norms. All fine. Which is what I said, but you won't accept!

There are degrees of judging on appearance, is I guess what I'm saying. If the guy at the bus stop was wearing a blood stained t-shirt and holding a severed head in one hand and a knife in the other then judging is fine. Making a judgement based on someone's teeth, weight, fingernails is completely different.

We're not going to agree though are we? All I can say is I don't teach my children to stay away from people based on how they smell or whether they have dirty hands and I'm not going to. I don't do it myself either (unless they smell so bad it makes me sick, but that's not a danger thing it's a vomit thing). I do teach them not to speak to strangers when they're by themselves, never to go away with a stranger, never get in a car with a stranger etc. I genuinely, honestly believe that is a better strategy than 'avoid people with dirty hands and people who smell'.

P.S. A clean white coat isn't cleaner than any other clean coat, but white shows the dirt more than any other colour so it's more obvious whether it's clean or not. I'd also be happy with a doctor in a clean white onesie.

Most of the cues that your brain sub-cncsously processes to give you that uneasy feeling about a stranger would be visual, i.e based on their appearance. Judging on appearance in the context we're discussing has nothing to do with snobbishness etc it's just the way a normal brain works.

Nothing to be ashamed of.

There are degrees of judging on appearance, is I guess what I'm saying. If the guy at the bus stop was wearing a blood stained t-shirt and holding a severed head in one hand and a knife in the other then judging is fine. Making a judgement based on someone's teeth, weight, fingernails is completely different.

So you've never got a bad feeling about someone who is dressed basically normally but still seems somewhat "off" to you? That's what the OP experienced with the guy at the bus-stop and she's concerned that her daughter was unable to read the "creepy" cues.

What I'm trying to say is that I would want to know that my kids were able to make more judgements based on far more subtle cues than a blood-stained t-shirt. I would want them to recognise that feeling in their gut that says that some part of your subconscious is ringing alarm-bells and I'd want to teach them to trust that feeling and act on it.

P.S. A clean white coat isn't cleaner than any other clean coat, but white shows the dirt more than any other colour so it's more obvious whether it's clean or not. I'd also be happy with a doctor in a clean white onesie.

It would sadden you to know that bacteria and viruses do not make something look dirty. But we're getting off track.

We're not going to agree though are we? All I can say is I don't teach my children to stay away from people based on how they smell or whether they have dirty hands and I'm not going to. I don't do it myself either (unless they smell so bad it makes me sick, but that's not a danger thing it's a vomit thing).

You don't have to tell them not to, you show them through actions. How many homeless or unkempt people are you friends with? I'm willing to bet that your friend are all hygienic, well groomed, and at least moderately well dressed. It's not a big deal, but it's not ignoring how your friends look either.

There are degrees of judging on appearance, is I guess what I'm saying.

Agreed, and this is a completely different statement than claiming you never judge based on appearance unless the guy is naked or dressed like a loon.

'So you've never got a bad feeling about someone who is dressed basically normally but still seems somewhat "off" to you'.

Not if they were also behaving normally, no. I've had bad feelings about people that are dressed normally lots of times, but because they stood too close, or were starring intently, or asked an inappropriate question, or were licking the wall. They were behavioural cues, not appearance cues.

'Agreed, and this is a completely different statement than claiming you never judge based on appearance unless the guy is naked or dressed like a loon.'

I didn't say I never judge on appearance (please quote me if you can find where I did say that and I'll apologise). I said in relation to someone's point about school uniform and clothes for a job interview that only stuff well outside of social norms would concern me. More generally as well, only stuff that is well outside of the social norm would concern me. Bad teeth, dirty hands, smelly, plaid trousers is not how I evaluate someone.

"Agreed, and this is a completely different statement than claiming you never judge based on appearance unless the guy is naked or dressed like a loon"

"If it was well outside social norms, they were naked or in a Mr Blobby suit for example, it would trouble me, but any kind of 'normal' attire really wouldn't." and "If the guy at the bus stop was wearing a blood stained t-shirt and holding a severed head in one hand and a knife in the other then judging is fine."

These are not contradictory statements. You have made it clear you refuse to judge unless they're blatantly wearing neon sign screaming "I'm a murderer/rapist/crazy person".

In any case, I'm not particularly vested in how much you judge someone. It's really no skin off my back how much danger you expose you or your children to. I'll be teaching mine to judge based on appearances and listen to instincts and ignore the idea of having to be polite if they're uncomfortable.

But if it's really that important to you, ok you don't judge based on bad nails, teeth, or grooming. You're a pure, moral, unadulterated spirit.

OK people - we need to get past this Judging by appearances thing.
Just because the OP listed a couple of things that stood out about this guy doesn't mean that those were the fundamental basis of the uncomfortable feeling she got from him. For most of us (Outraged being an exception) the signals we perceive which trigger a feeling of unease are subtle and hard to put your feeling on. If it had been another man who was a lovely guy and had been round to his aunties house all day to work in her garden and had got a little dirty and smelly, he probably would not have given off the same creepy vibe as the guy the OP encountered even though he would have had dirty hands and a nasty tang.

The semantics of what constitutes appearance and what constitutes something you see/observe/notice about someone are really pretty irrelevant.

When I'm talking about appearance I'm simply talking about the way someone appears to me i.e. what I can see or observe about them.

FWIW I also do not believe for one second that there is a single one of us (maybe those with SN excepted) that don't judge based on appearances, even by Outraged's more limited definition. There are plenty of studies that show that human beings judge constantly, instantly and quite predictably in many cases.

I wouldn't say I refuse to judge. I just don't. I honestly can't remember what my dentists teeth are like. It's not that I noticed and said, 'no, I mustn't judge'. It just doesn't occur to me. If I saw someone with dirty hands at a bus stop it wouldn't 'say' anything to me iyswim. It would just be someone with dirty hands.

You do seem to be quite vested in how much I judge someone tbh. You've called me a liar, a mental gymnast and now 'a pure, moral, unadulterated spirit'. It seems to really bother you that I don't mind a plaid trouser or a dirty hand.

'I'll be teaching mine to judge based on appearances and listen to instincts and ignore the idea of having to be polite if they're uncomfortable'

I'll just stick to the last two and I'm confident they'll be just as safe as your children. With any luck they too will become pure, moral, unadulterated spirits .

Your DD sounds adorable. I've had several long, rambling conversations with random children on trains, buses etc and I love it. I'd be happy to chat at any time with your DD.

How wonderful that she is so confident and already developing good people skills.

'For most of us (Outraged being an exception) the signals we perceive which trigger a feeling of unease are subtle and hard to put your feeling on'

They weren't 'subtle and hard to put your feeling on' for the OP. She specified the dirty hands and smell. That's how this whole thing got started.....

'When I'm talking about appearance I'm simply talking about the way someone appears to me i.e. what I can see or observe about them.'

Well, that is very different isn't it? We could have done with that definition earlier. I can see and observe behaviour. So if we're talking behaviour then I'm totally on board. I definitely judge on behaviour. In my discussion with bulb though she only mentioned clothing and physical appearance (plaid, bad teeth, fat etc.). That's quite different. We can agree that there is a difference between teeth and behaviour can't we?

'even by Outraged's more limited definition'

It wasn't me that limited it to clothing and teeth/weight. I understand you disagree with me, but be fair.

Outraged, I think what most people are trying to say is that despite the fact that you are not consciously judging people, it doesn't mean you aren't in fact it is a totally normal, rational,natural aspect of human behaviour.

I have no idea what my dentist's teeth look like either, but you know, if either of us had a dentist with appalling teeth we probably would know - we observe thousands of things every minute - we don't need to consciously avoid thinking about these things - our brains filter them for us. It doesn't mean that our brain has not made a judgment based on what we observe.

So, your at the dentist, you see his/her teeth, they are not appalling, your brain judges them to be unworthy of further consideration and therefore you never give them a moments conscious thought.

To deny that we judge by appearance is just naive or an instance on an extremely limited definition.

It is good that you don't make unreasonable conscious judgements about people based on their dress etc, but that doesn't mean that you aren't judging every person you see every single time you see someone.

Yep - I think you need to disentangle what I'm saying form some of the other poster's arguments about clothing etc.

Although, whether you are consciously aware of it or not, we are probably all making judgements about people based on everything from their skin colour, to their sock colour. It's just called being a human. We override these natural tendencies with learned tolerance, manner, politeness etc.
Most of us like to think of ourselves as fairly un-judgmental (my mother excepted) but it is just one of those uncomfortable truths that we are all in fact very judgemental without even realising!

Lordy, if only I could get to the point!

Basically I think it's important to not get so hung up on the importance of being non-judgemental that we ignore the warning signals our brain sends us because our conscious mind is saying "Just because he has dirty finger nails and smells dreadful doesn't mean he's a bad guy".

That's dangerous, and that's why it's important to teach children to be kind but to trust their gut even if the only cues they have are appearance based and seem irrelevant.

'Outraged, I think what most people are trying to say is that despite the fact that you are not consciously judging people, it doesn't mean you aren't in fact it is a totally normal, rational, natural aspect of human behaviour'

I think most people have gone to bed . It's pretty much just me, you and bulb. I don't think bulb is saying that, because she's talking about actively teaching her children to judge based on whether people are fat or have dirty hands. That is a different thing to the unconscious, split-second judgements we make, you can't teach that.

We're not talking about unconscious judgement, we're talking about the moment it becomes conscious. When you decide you don't like someone, or that someone is a danger to you. Never at that point, for me, has it been based on physical appearance (unless it was very much outside social norms). It has always been behavioural. It's the conscious judgement we're talking about. If the OP's judgement had remained unconscious we wouldn't be here talking about it. At some point it crossed the threshold and she became aware of the judgement she made and posted about it.

I think we are talking extremely limited definitions though. I'm talking about conscious judgement of someone's physical appearance. Sparked initially by the comment about school uniform and further by bulb's idea that you wouldn't trust a fat nutritionist. I didn't set the 'physical appearance' definition, just responded to it.

'Yep - I think you need to disentangle what I'm saying form some of the other poster's arguments about clothing etc.'

I know what you're saying and I don't think I've disagreed particularly. I've been responding to bulb and her comments. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

I'm all for listening to your gut instincts btw. Although I do think we need to be aware of what builds those instincts. If every time you see a black man you get an 'instinct' he's going to mug you, you're not intuitive you're a racist.

That's just an example btw, before I get accused of accusing someone else of being a racist!

I find I'm feeling rather sorry for this man (and for Outraged - after a lifetime in combat uniform I don't judge people on appearance either, ever)

If I saw a man dressed in clean tidy clothes, with a BO smell and filthy hands I would think "gardener" "motor rewinds" "waste disposal" "mechanic" "builder" "potato picker" "chimney sweep"

All of whom would be quite likely to be getting a bus to and from our village. DHs gardener friend often pops in to our house for a cuppa when he's finished work 3 doors down, and he absolutely stinks by the end of the day. Thankfully none of us (DD included) judges him by his appearance or smell. I wonder if the people at the bus stop do though?

This is nothing to do with the mans appearance. It was all about the smoking, but OP didn't get the reaction she wanted to that.

If every time you see a black man you get an 'instinct' he's going to mug you, you're not intuitive you're a racist.

Very true - on the flip side if you find yourself in a bus shelter with a black guy and something about him is making your uneasy, it's important not to just ignore your instinct just because you don't like to think of yourself as judging someone because they're black.

Why are we assuming the op's dd didn't listen to her gut? The op has already said that sometimes her daughter stubbornly refuses to talk to people, so we can assume she is not compelled to talk to people she doesn't like. Perhaps the dd's gut said this guy was fine despite his smell and dirty fingernails.

I'm with outraged. It would be different if her dd missed the fact that he was stood too close, or scowling, or heavy breathing or rocking or whistling a menacing tune. She just didn't drop him in the too dangerous box because of his nails and smell, that was her instinct.

Thanks Eve

DHs gardener friend often pops in to our house for a cuppa when he's finished work 3 doors down, and he absolutely stinks by the end of the day. Thankfully none of us (DD included) judges him by his appearance or smell. I wonder if the people at the bus stop do though?

If he's a lovely guy then they probably wouldn't because he wouldn't give off that creepy vibe. I think it's harsh to dismiss the OP's judgement call just because she can't clearly articulate everything about the guy that made her uneasy.

I'm also surprised that you would say that combat would stop you judging people. I only have a couple of friends who've spent significant periods of time in combat, but along with my police friends, I would say they are the most likely to be able to accurately spot on sight the arsehole in the room that the rest of us won't notice until he does something horrible. Being able to visually judge people is (from what I've been told) incredibly important in those sorts of roles.

I really don't think the OP came on here to express concern that her DD is not judgemental enough about dirty fingernails. Therefore, I am making the assumption that there was something more about this guy that set the OP on edge and she's concerned (we'll never know whether rightly or not) that her daughter didn't pick up on the same cues.

Generally, I think the OP doesn't come across as a judgmental nutter, so given that she has witnessed her daughters naivety and I haven't I'm going to work with the OP based on those assumptions.