To wish DD wasn't quite so friendly?

[ClawHandsIfYouBelieveInFreaks]

She's 6 and she's quite loud, confident and chatty. Unlike me. My older DD is very reserved and quiet so DD2 is a bit of a mystery to me at times.

She will talk to ANYONE with the same degree of open friendliness as she does her mates, her teachers and her family.

Today we got a bus and it was a long wait on a lonely stretch of road in a rural village. A man came along to wait also.

It was raining and the bus shelter offered the only protection...it was a wooden one...you know with three sides and an open front.

Anyway, this man came inside and began smoking roll ups which I cannot abide the smell of...not to mention there were two children in the shelter.

I decided to ignore this and stood at the edge with the DC so they weren't breathing it in.

DD immediately catches his eye and begins chatting to him and I turn to look and he's just filthy dirty and smells of unwashed person...his clothes were tidy and clean looking but his hands were black and he has dirty nails and as I said he smelled really bad...and he just had the air of someone I didn't want to chat with on a dark night down a bloody lane.

I don't know what to do about this? Should her instinct about who to talk to and who not to talk to be in place by now? She turns 7 in March...or am I being awful and should I celebrate my non-judgemental child? He was "alsright" but I was unnerved by him...you know how you just are by some people? My instincts had sort of kicked in and I didn't want to engage with him but there was DD telling him about her singing lessons.

Because of DD breaking the ice I HAD to!

DD is one of these and I am very proud that she doesn't judge on appearances. We were also having a lovely chat the other day with a couple, both smoking, both smelly and dirty nails and clothes. I think they were probably homeless so maybe didn't have a nailbrush! They were lovely to her and really warm and kind.

She sometimes doesn't want to talk and is actually quite rude about it. I've always wondered if she has better instincts than me.

Being able to chatter on to anyone is a lovely quality.

'Or maybe she's just not a judgemental person? Which is, surely, a good thing?'

It's good to know that you shouldn't always judge a book by it's cover and go in with an understanding that the majority of people are kind and helpful, but to never to try and sum up a situation and 'read' someone by their outward appearance/behaviour is naive at best.

There are tons of examples I can think of where judging people has paid off and I was right to keep well away.

Young kids just don't understand social conventions.She will assimilate these 'rules' over the next year or two all by herself.

MY dearly departed FIL was like that. He could take against the most "respectable" people and then sit down for hours to talk to a raggamuffin.

Please don't teach her to judge a book by its cover, some of the most dangerous people around are impeccably dressed and manicured.

It's interesting how many people are all up in arms about judging by appearances.

You know when you're out on the street (or wherever) and there's someone nearby that just makes your hackles stand up, makes you feel uneasy or just makes you wary? Do you think that' some sort of ESP? No, it's your instinctual response to visual signs of potential danger. Learning to recognise a potential threat and behave appropriately (which doesn't necessarily mean not talking) is an incredibly important life skill.

Of course there are dangerous people out there who don't look bad but are, which is why visual stimuli are not the only criteria we should use to judge, but that doesn't mean we should not help our children to develop sensible skills for judging others.

For helping with people who look normal but are bad news, the "Tricky People" method seems to be an effective and sensible approach.

Well, you could. If you want her to be the sort of person who judges by external appearance…

An incredibly important life skill that we all use every single day? Yes, I want my children to have that.

should have said afterwards maybe that I didn't like the man?

I would maybe have just said "That man made me feel a bit nervous. Did you notice how dirty and smelly he was and how he didn't seem to care that we were there?" Just starting a conversation to get her thinking.

First of all, it's all well and good that your daughter doesn't judge a book by it's cover. But she needs to learn not to talk to strangers and understand that not everyone is a friend. You want to break this habit before she becomes a young woman and learns the hard way that being friendly to strange men can open the door for aggressive harassment. Learning to blank people can be a good skill, and in the right circumstances it's the right thing to do.

The "Don't judge a book" brigade has no clue if he was truly harmless or not. Most people that are unwashed or homeless are there because of drug problems or mental illness. The good man hard on his luck story is nice, and it makes us feel good to think of it this way, the brutal truth is that's rarely the case. While that may not make them inherently bad, it does add an air of unpredictability. You don't know he didn't have violent tendencies, and your daughter just drew his attention to you.

People all need a chance in public, well lit areas where there is minimal risk to yourself. Not bus stops at night where you're alone and vulnerable with two children.

To illustrate a point. I ran into a homeless man at a gas station who was perfectly pleasant to me, he went outside and tried picking a fight with DH got verbally abusive for no reason. DH had to de-escalate the situation and find a quick out to get away.

Judging people by their appearance is not an incredibly important life skill. Taking cues from their behaviour maybe, but their appearance? No.

I don't think there is any link between how bad someone smells and how likely they are to harm you. I'm pretty sure BO doesn't drive people to murder.

In this situation, I don't think her talking to him made the situation any more dangerous. If he was there to rob/rape/murder you, he would have done that anyway. If anything, he was probably less likely to be a threat once she engaged him in conversation. She may have saved you from the smelly bus stop killer.

Outraged, you gain information about someone's behaviour using your eyes and their appearance can be extremely helpful in your assessment of them even if you're not conscious that you are doing it.

The point is more that the OP is concerned that her daughter doesn't seem to pick up on all the cues that others do. Judging other people is an incredibly important life skill and saves lives. It's totally different to ranking someone's social status etc - that's not what I'm talking about.

I also specifically said that making rational judgements of the people around you doesn't necessarily mean not talking to them - I agree with you, that in this situation it was probably not any additional risk.

So true Bulbasaur. I remember reading a story a little while ago which had been written by a police officer about her experience in dealing with victims of rape. She said she could not get over how often the victim was berating themselves for not having listened to their instinct that told them that something just wasn't right about the guy, but they just felt that they shouldn't be so judgemental or impolite.

What people are saying in the way they choose to look can be an important indicator, why else would job interview clothes and school uniforms be so important else?

Personal hygiene is also a pretty important routine for the majority of people, for bloody good reason.

Of course it isn't as simple as grufty bastard = psycho killer, but you can't say they don't have any substance either.

OP said his clothes were clean and tidy anyway it was just his psycho killer hands that freaked her out

Sorry, that was to outraged.

Please don't teach her to judge a book by its cover, some of the most dangerous people around are impeccably dressed and manicured.

Well dressed, charming people are typically sexual predators, not street muggers and yes she needs to be aware of wolves in sheep's clothing. That is not what this situation is. This is a completely different scenario than the family friend who grooms your child.

Most violent offenders, or offenders that are likely to assault or mug you are from lower economic backgrounds. That is a fact, and it is backed up by statistics. It is not being judgmental. That doesn't mean all poor people are dangerous, but of the people that tried to mug me, not one was well dressed or well groomed. They were poor, unbathed, and desperate for their fix. So let's not act like every homeless guy is the proverbial blind beggar from the bible.

It's stupidity and unnecessarily putting yourself in harm's way to not judge based on appearances. Yes, judge on the whole picture, body language, mannerisms, etc.. But outward appearance and how a person looks is a big part of that picture. I've had plenty of conversations from people of all backgrounds, and have been shown kindness from all walks of life.

Not judging based on appearances is for your child's classmates and controlled safe environments, not the streets. I would just tell her that not everyone is a friend and that you don't want her to talk to strangers unless you introduce yourself first. Asking her to read body language is too much for a 7 year old, but you can give her a general rule that only adults talk to strange adults.

'why else would job interview clothes and school uniforms be so important else'

I don't think they are, but evidently I'm in the minority.

If it was well outside social norms, they were naked or in a Mr Blobby suit for example, it would trouble me, but any kind of 'normal' attire really wouldn't.

If it was well outside social norms, they were naked or in a Mr Blobby suit for example, it would trouble me, but any kind of 'normal' attire really wouldn't.

You're either lying, in denial, or have no social awareness.

This is the same thing as proudly claiming that you're color blind. Hint: You're not.

You would not take a doctor in a grungy sweat suit seriously, just like you would not take a lawyer in plaid pants seriously. You would not take a teacher dressed like a teenager seriously (unless she was teaching certain elective subjects where being quirky was ok). You would not take a stock broker in rags seriously. You would not take a dentist with bad teeth seriously, nor would you trust a fat nutritionist. Outward appearance has a lot of influence on first impressions and what a person thinks of you.

You judge people based on appearance whether you want to admit it or not. To pretend otherwise is just disingenuous. It does not make you a morally superior person to be socially unaware, it puts you in a position of vulnerability if you truly cannot read the full picture.

Of the people that tried to mug you how many did you start a conversation with? Do you think that the conversation is what led to the mugging attempt? I imagine if someone is desperate for a fix they'll mug you whether you chat to them or not.

The ones who are more likely to target you if you talk to them, the ones it is dangerous to get involved with are the well dressed, charming, sexual predators. The poor, dirty, drug addicts will mug you regardless.

'You would not take a doctor in a grungy sweat suit seriously.'

I wouldn't like that, but from a hygiene perspective. I'd like a clean white coat and gloves.

'just like you would not take a lawyer in plaid pants'

I honestly don't care about my lawyers trousers.

'You would not take a teacher dressed like a teenager seriously'

A lot of the teachers at my DC school are in smartish jeans/leggings and long tops type attire. I take them all seriously.

'You would not take a stock broker in rags seriously'.

I think rags would be well outside social norms. That would be an eyebrow raiser.

'You would not take a dentist with bad teeth seriously'.

I've honestly, cross my heart, never even looked at my dentists teeth!

'nor would you trust a fat nutritionist'

Yes, I would. And I think most people would tbh.

I'm not pretending and I'm not lying. So I guess I'm either in denial or have no social awareness. Or you're wrong.

Of the people that tried to mug you how many did you start a conversation with? Do you think that the conversation is what led to the mugging attempt? I imagine if someone is desperate for a fix they'll mug you whether you chat to them or not.

If you must know, of the people that tried to mug me, 2 who teamed up did not try to talk to me. One did and got brave because I seemed friendly. Both incidents were in broad day light. These people were not exactly the sharpest crayons.

Of the people that I avoided based on appearances after that, I had exactly zero mugging attempts. Funny how that worked out.

The ones who are more likely to target you if you talk to them, the ones it is dangerous to get involved with are the well dressed, charming, sexual predators.

Wait. Did you just.. make an assumption based on appearance? I thought you didn't do that.

Everyone judges on appearance, it's part of the big picture and helps determine if something is off or not. It is a crucial life skill to be able to do so.

I'm not pretending and I'm not lying. So I guess I'm either in denial or have no social awareness. Or you're wrong.

"The ones who are more likely to target you if you talk to them, the ones it is dangerous to get involved with are the well dressed, charming, sexual predators."

Denial or lying it is then. :)

I was quoting you; 'Well dressed, charming people are typically sexual predators' .

I do judge on appearance, but only where that is outside of social norms. The dirty doctor, the raggy stock broker and the naked job applicant would be judged.

The fat nutritionist, the bad toothed dentist, the plaid panted lawyer, the teacher in jeans? Not so much.

I'm not lying.

I wouldn't like that, but from a hygiene perspective. I'd like a clean white coat and gloves.

I wasn't aware white was more hygienic than any other color. See, you do expect doctors to look a certain way and wear their white coat uniform.

I honestly don't care about my lawyers trousers.

Bullshit. If for no other reason, you would so that the jury took him seriously when he stood up in court. You would want the judge to take him seriously to give your case credibility.

A lot of the teachers at my DC school are in smartish jeans/leggings and long tops type attire. I take them all seriously.

That's not dressing like a teenager, that's business casual.

I've honestly, cross my heart, never even looked at my dentists teeth!

This is denial. If they were bad, you would have noticed. It is hard wired in the human brain to notice bad teeth as a defense mechanism against disease. You have noticed when other people have bad teeth. Your dentist has teeth that are well taken care of so they fade into a non-feature and didn't register as something you should take note of.

I do judge on appearance, but only where that is outside of social norms.

If you are judging based outside of social norm, then you are also judging that if someone dresses to the social norm then they're probably fine and it's a non-issue to you. This exactly what judging based on appearance is. It is not about looking down on people "lesser" than you.

and...

"The ones who are more likely to target you if you talk to them, the ones it is dangerous to get involved with are the well dressed, charming, sexual predators."

Is not quoting me. It's making your own statement in earnest. The mental gymnastics with you is real.