To think UKIP are wrong

[pauline6703]

People come to the UK because they are suffering abuse and disadvantage in their own countries.
I think we should offer then a safe place but UKIP seems to want to let them suffer abuse and pain. I think UKIP are wrong.
What do you all thing.

That us very different to the undeniable right of any EU citizen to live in the country of any other EU member. That's what we are experiencing. We do not have the controls of job and residency that Swiz as a non EU member has

these however are uncapped and can be obtained as long as you have a job offer. that's what the referendum was about.

if you don't have a job, you can go and look for one.

I agree, it is more cumbersome than going from Britain to France, but it seems to be essentially the same.

The reason why I think UKIP has it wrong, is that unlike most UKIP voters, I think it's great to have free movement of people. While I agree with them that the EU is a terrible organization, what the propose, a common market without free movement, is terrible for workers but great for multinationals. See the effect of NAFTA on the north american market.

Residency in Swiz is tied to having a job. No job and your residency will lapse.

temporary residency in a non EU country us very different to an unalienable right to permanently reside in the UK with or without a job, as long as you are coming here from an EU member state. It's disingenuous yo pretend otherwise. The Swiz system is exactly the same as many other countries that only admit workers who have jobs to go to.

We could argue all evening about the Swiz / UK / Norwegian residency rights but that would be taking us away from the key issue which is that the UK population has been increased by 260,000 in a dingle year, due yo immigration without a commensurate increase in the schools, hospitals, transport and housing necessary to accommodate a 260,000 increase in people living here.

Cameron's speech tomorrow should be interesting as he promised to reduce immigration to 'tens of thousands'. He has presided over more than quarter of a million.

We might all agree that the EU is a bureaucratic nightmare, but people who think that the Mike Read song was quite a good idea and that Lenny Henry should go back to 'a black country' really aren't people I trust to throw a piss up in a brewery, never mind have the first idea about diplomacy and foreign policy.

Of course if we did leave Europe, I expect the Mayor of Calais would be quite happy. I imagine that quite a few border checks could be a bit slap dash during the time that it took to draw up new treaties, particularly if UKIP were in charge.

Border controls are pretty slipshod at the moment judging by the almost daily reports of people smuggling themselves in in lorries.

But if you are an elderly person on a coach trip you will be questioned and have your passport scrutinised. That I can vouch for.

Anyway, nobody seems bothered about an annual increase of 260,000 people arriving each year and nobody is doing anything to stop it so let's just carry on as we are.

It's not a vision of the future that fills me with confidence

It is interesting though, that, in some EU countries, one needs a residents card or number to access services and in order to get one of those you have to prove work, study or independent means, EU freedom of movement or not.

E.g. the Swedish personnummer stockholmaccommodation.wikia.com/wiki/Personnummer

I wonder if introducing the same here would diffuse a lot of the nonsense, save money and help to render UKIP pointless.

we have National a Insurance numbers but that system is reputed to have been corrupted. we also have NHS numbers, but I've never been asked for one

There was talk of introducing an ID card under the last Labour Givt but the idea was dropped.

We seem to be relying more on passports and driving licences for ID purposes. if you've ever read Day if the Jackal you'll know how to acquire a false passport. In the South West the head of the equal opps organisation or suchlike has recently been found to gave been an imposter. He went unchallenged for over 20 years using a false ID and nobody knows who he really is.

different to an unalienable right to permanently reside in the UK with or without a job, as long as you are coming here from an EU member state. It's disingenuous yo pretend otherwise.

every european here must be "exercising treaty rights", and you can only do that under certain conditions (you have means, you are employed are essentially it). you are supposed to be able to come here and just live off the state. Unfortunately, we have a welfare system which makes that possible and you can't discriminate.

due yo immigration without a commensurate increase in the schools, hospitals, transport and housing necessary to accommodate a 260,000 increase in people living here.

and who here supports that. We should be building houses and schools.

For some reason we are so ass backwards dysfunctional here that we can't handle such pitiful numbers. Canada and Australia take in double that (per population) EVERY YEAR and manage to build schools and houses.

it's so predictable. whenever times get tough, the first scapegoats are immigrants. UKIP is careful not to "blame" immigrants. Their followers are not so careful.

if you've ever read Day if the Jackal you'll know how to acquire a false passport.

Thankfully they do interview first time passport applicants now.

Another problem regarding numbers of immigrants that no-one has mentioned is it enables large companies to bring back draconian working laws, zero hour contracts being one of the worst.

It enables the rich to get richer and the poor to become poorer.

Canada has a population of 29.6 million in a land mass of 9,976,000 km2
UK has a population of 64.1 million in a land mass of 243,000km2

It's a lot more crowded here.

Nobody is blaming the immigrants. That's just stupid. And you cannot seriously compare enormous countries like Canada to the small island that we live on.

I really don't understand what has happened In the last decade or so. We used to have a declining birth rate, affordable housing, job opportunities, a really good accessible health service. Suddenly we have shortages of housing, health, transport etc etc. We seem to have a population that we can no longer fully support.

It's like some crazy Ponzi scheme where more and more people are needed to service the increasing numbers of people who wish to live here. like a Klondike rush, will they all disappear in few years time when the caravan moves on?

Nobody is blaming immigrants themselves vid this NI would be doing the same to get a better standard of living for my family But they are being exploited by poor employers, by low wages that don't afford them a decent roof over their heads, by zero hours contracts. We are going back to the very reasons that trade unions were set up.

Meanwhile the countries they left are dying on their feet. 26,500 Polish health staff are supposedly working in the NHS and their country is complaining about a shortage of skilled healthcare professionals. Poland trained these people, invested in them and we poached them. This is seriously wrong. We are denuding the other EU countries of their brightest and best.

I find that quite shameful

It's a lot more crowded here.

only 7% of the UK is classified as "urban". That includes roads, rural developments and cities. we can bump that up to 10% if you like. The rest is undeveloped.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

Also, when immigrants go to Canada and Australia, they don't just chop trees down in the wilderness and build a cabin. Almost all go to Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Melbourne and Sydney. Those places are also very crowded (unlike the rest of their respective countries).

we have arcane building laws here and aggressive NIMBYism, as demonstrated on this thread.

Nobody is blaming immigrants themselves vid this NI would be doing the same to get a better standard of living for my family But they are being exploited by poor employers, by low wages that don't afford them a decent roof over their heads, by zero hours contracts. We are going back to the very reasons that trade unions were set up

This is absolutely spot on.

This is why people are voting UKIP.

Your normal working class person is being sucked into this and becoming poorer. A huge divide is being created. People vote UKIP out of desperation. The other parties are just not listening.

Totally agree Wetaugust, and it is the employers and the wealthy who stand to gain the most from uncontrolled immigration.

Labour and UKIP say they will do something about zero hours contracts.

Totally agree Wetaugust, and it is the employers and the wealthy who stand to gain the most from uncontrolled immigration.

how about the immigrants themselves?

The problem is that UKIP proposes a system where everyone including the immigrants will be worse off. They want free trade with Europe, but not free borders. If cheap labour doesn't come here (and it's not that cheap), what do suppose is the rational course of action for a company? Go to the cheap labour.

If I were big business I would be loving UKIPs proposals. Under UKIP labour is far less mobile. Keeping the cheap labour in a specific area gives business a great incentive to move there.

The problem is that UKIP proposes a system where everyone including the immigrants will be worse off. They want free trade with Europe, but not free borders. If cheap labour doesn't come here (and it's not that cheap), what do suppose is the rational course of action for a company? Go to the cheap labour.

Written

It may come as a surprise to you but it is possible to buy goods from other countries under Free Trade agreements without having to import the people who made those goods. I can buy a TV made in China, but I don:t have to imposrt a Chinese person to work the TV remote control for me.
Just why does this country need to agree to 'free labour' to staff the local Aldi or Lidl? Why isn't the indiginous population able to do that, I hear the argument that they dont want to do those jobs - tough, becuase i don't want to pay a fit and able person to sit on their ass all day.

You are being suckered into soemthing that is totally unnececessary There is this ridiculous arms race for growth. Growth is not bringing us any benefits it is just tryng to squeeze another 260,000 every year into the houses, jobs, health system transportsystem etc that was designed for a population of a much smaller number.

I dont want to live in a country that has been concreted over to provide additional houses, roafs, hospitals etc for what could be a transient work force that moves on to the next EU country that offers them better benefits or employment issues.

I went to a lecture on the history of Parishes a few weeks ago. They had similar problems centuroes ago when the industrial revolution meant people moved from the parishes they were born in to the factoroes within cities. If they became ill or lost their jobs they were expected to return to their original Parish for support. We could learn a lot by studying history.

I think this DM article sums up everything that's wrong with the current situation and nothing in Cameron's speech will change that.

^A major British retailer is hiring thousands of cheap Eastern European workers to staff its warehouse in an area where more than 200,000 are on the dole, it has been claimed.

A former member of staff at Next has revealed how 'busloads' of Polish workers started arriving at the company's warehouse in South Elmsall in West Yorkshire earlier this month.

It comes as it was revealed more than 218,000 are out of work in the Humber and Yorkshire area with unemployment higher than average^

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2852931/How-hiring-thousands-cheap-Eastern-European-workers-staff-warehouse-area-200-000-dole.html

WetAugust that's the problem though, for as long as our economy is growing, the labour market will need to attract workers from within the EU (and outside the EU) and that is just a matter of fact. Stop the economy growing and they will go away: that is the fundamental problem with UKIP. Do they want our economy to fail?

To use the Chinese tv example: we don't make tvs any more, precisely because labour is cheaper in china. And the UK is as much influenced by global markets as anyone else.

The only question is whether the international trade in these products is fair competition (which is what the EU rules are there to protect us from).

Wrt to your latest post WetAugust I wouldn't necessarily believe everything that the Daily Mail reports about immigration or EU policy for that matter.

If the people being bussed in to jobs are being paid under the minimum wage; then that is illegal and needs to be addressed by enforcing the law. Frankly, this suggests that the employer is paying people to be bussed in from other countries, because they can't recruit locally, in which case we should be grateful that there are indeed people willing to be bussed in to operate our distribution networks, so that we can buy cheap clothes.

Surely it would be an elitist response to suggest that clothes should be more expensive.

It may come as a surprise to you but it is possible to buy goods from other countries under Free Trade agreements without having to import the people who made those goods. I can buy a TV made in China, but I don:t have to imposrt a Chinese person to work the TV remote control for me.
Just why does this country need to agree to 'free labour' to staff the local Aldi or Lidl? Why isn't the indiginous population able to do that, I hear the argument that they dont want to do those jobs - tough, becuase i don't want to pay a fit and able person to sit on their ass all day.

I don't think you are understanding my point. If Polish labour is cheaper, as the DM article suggests it is, British companies have a much bigger incentive to relocate to Poland, which they could easily do under free trade. Some industries of course can't relocate, but some can. And since under UKIP Poles couldn't come here easily, that means that Poles have lower paying jobs with the same company (in Poland) and we have none of those jobs.

The question is, why don't those people on the dole work for these warehouses?

I dont want to live in a country that has been concreted over to provide additional houses, roafs, hospitals etc for what could be a transient work force that moves on to the next EU country that offers them better benefits or employment issues.

we have a long way to go before that happens. But, to keep your pristine country side, you are willing to prevent Poles and other europeans from having a better life?

I would expect that the DM was sure of its facts in case it was sued by Next.

We are constantly told that growth is good. Growth is only good if it produces benefits for those who enable growth. I see no point in chasing growth for growth's sake at the expense of the working person who produces that growth when the benefits of that growth are reatined by a small band of corporations or while the Governemnet hands over billions and billions of pounds to the EU.

I am old enough to remember the 1980s and the 'greed is good' culture. We seem to have a 'grow is good' culture now that does not actually question whether the price we are paying for this growth and the benefits that are supposedly provided by this growth are actually bennefitting the average Briatish person. I see no evidence that it is.

There has to be a reason why non-UK nationals appear to the worker of choice for many corporations and it is pure and simple exploitation. Bristish workers have rights and expecatations that have been hard won over many years. They can see exploitation, whereas the non-UK immigrant is just grateful for any job. There were acounts from lorry drivers this morning about new non-UK employees being offered contracts at lower rates and depleted benefits to those the existing work force has.

This is just a depressing downwards spiral, a race to the bottom, fnded by the UK tax payer. We were promised 'high tech' jobs. a highly trained graduate workforce that would be the envy of the world.

What we have achieved is to deny a good section of the permanently based UK workforce even a sniff of a job, while we import low cost but eager immigrants willing to do this low paid work through desperation.

Welcome to the EU