To think UKIP are wrong

[pauline6703]

People come to the UK because they are suffering abuse and disadvantage in their own countries.
I think we should offer then a safe place but UKIP seems to want to let them suffer abuse and pain. I think UKIP are wrong.
What do you all thing.

British to me means those who are born here.

What about those born to British people but not born here? Like me?

Incidentally, I have worked every day for 30 years, and have been a higher tax payer for a fair amount of that. I am a business owner now and pay all my business tax on a monthly basis.

Are you sure that all the nonsense you are spouting is actually true? Would you care to post [non daily fail] links to support your arguments? The only reason that politicians are acknowledging anything is because politics seems to be run by the papers these days. And we all know what that is all about and it's not about population.

However I am more than happy to be sent back to my home land. Which is where I will take my skills and money if UKIP gets in.

British to me means those who are born here

What about me?

Born in the EU to non-British parents, lived in the UK for 20+ years, higher rate tax payer all that time, married to a Brit, all children born in the UK?

The UK benefitted from my degree training abroad, the country paid nothing for me, I have paid lots (which, btw, I don't resent in the least - I am one of those people who'd happily contribute more for public services for ALL) and I don't see myself leaving the UK.

Unless UKIP or their ilk came to power

But you're right, I don't actually identify as British on a purely emotional level. I still, funnily enough, think I have every moral and legal right to remain in the country. Even with my forrin passport.

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
Pastor Niemöller

Just sayin'

Not sure what your quote from Pastor Niemoller is signally, he was speaking about nazi Germany and horrific actions, I do not think any comparison with Ukip if that is what you are suggesting is valid

I don't mean to trivialise the situation in which that poem was written.

But I do think it is worthwhile considering that what seems acceptable at the time can change rather quickly and horrifically.

Like I said, Mr Reckless would have the likes of me deported.

I understand your comparison Pacific

Not sure what your quote from Pastor Niemoller is signally, he was speaking about nazi Germany and horrific actions, I do not think any comparison with Ukip if that is what you are suggesting is valid

The Nazi party started as the National Socialist German Worker's Party, sounds quite benign doesn't it.

I agree with Pacific. We are sleep walking into a situation which can not be good for our country or a lot of people who live here - whether British or not.

We have a duty to challenge the bollocks that is being spouted and to stop a 'debate' about immigration which is littered with ignorance and prejudice. Which is even displayed by the well meaning OP.

Dear UKIP voters

"in the UK, the ratio of people of working age to people over 65 could fall from 3.7 to 1 in 1999 to 2.1 to 1 in 2040"

How do you intend to bridge this gap and support the aging population?

But all the extra workers needed to support the aging population will grow old and will need even greater numbers of workers to support them. It is unsustainable and means we are heading for disaster, the worlds population is already too large and cannot grow exponentially. We need to ensure our old age is being funded through our working lives and that population rates are steady but not growing. Carry on like this and the whole world will be a third world shithole and sooner rather than later.

UnicornsAndGlitter taking on board your comments about the whole world becoming a "third world shit hole" I want to throw this out there.

Lets cut foreign aid...

...which funds a lot of schemes like sex education.
...and leave lots of people to die, because well they aren't are problem.

...and stops progress in areas which means there is less need to migrate to the UK.
Afterall, humanity is a first world issue.

Lets leave Europe and leave immigration to the rest of the EU purely to them, as we have a sea to protect us...
...we'll ignore the number of migrants already risking their lives and successfully crossing the Mediterranean).
Its not our problem.

UKIP want to both stop immigration and stop overseas involvement. This causes problems in multiple directions by isolating ourselves. The thinking is so flawed it beggars belief. Its shallow and one dimensional. But perhaps its the simplicity that appeals.

The Ebola crisis is a very good example of why we shouldn't see things as 'other people' and 'other peoples' problems'.

We live in a world which is increasingly small in various ways.

We either choose to lead, take responsibility and look beyond our own noses or are doomed to be the victim of our own blinkered selfishness.

Pacific's quote is incredibly adapt not just because of the racist/Nazi overtone.

unicorns andglitter

"But all the extra workers needed to support the aging population will grow old and will need even greater numbers of workers to support them."

Many immigrants come after they have studied, work here and go home.

redtoothbrush

YY to everything you wrote

unicornsandglitter

and how do you propose we raise enough revenue to pay for current pensions plus future pensions at the same time from a rapidly decreasing young population?

Didn't say I was a UKIP voter RedToothbrush I don't like any politician, think they're all useless, self serving scum.

The whole world is heading for a desperate future. That is an issue for all of humanity. It is not them and us, we are all going in to this together. There is no easy answer, its going to be horrific and likely completely out of our control.

It doesn't matter who you vote for Unicorns. The points stand regardless.

What you said was about it being 'them' and 'us'. Its about this notion of 'other' which is really the heart of the problem and is reflected in the rise of UKIP. UKIP are a manifestation of a wider school of thought that is shared by other individuals, groups and political parties.

I do not believe issue of this nature are completely out of control. If we can aim a rocket and get a probe to land on a comet that's travelling at enormous speed half way across the solar system through innovation, cooperation, patience and persistence we can plan and develop ways to deal with future population issues.

What we lack is the political will to do that because we are all too busy passing the buck saying "well I'm ok" and "its not my problem".

The UK is a small country and cannot possibly take in every person from other countries who wants a better life. That's a fact. Immigration is a good thing but it needs to be controlled.

Oh and politics exist in many places throughout society. Its not restricted to professional politics. There are many areas where politics are forces for enormous good.

I think its unwise and unhelpful to label all politicians self serving scum for this reason. What we are looking for, is actually to encourage people to get involved in politics to moderate those who are self serving by providing an alternative. By labelling, it will mean those people who could change the status quo are less likely to get involved.

Vivien, everyone focuses on 'keeping out'.

Where is the emphasis on 'keeping people put'?

Immigration is all about pull AND push factors.

Where in UKIP's manifesto is there ANY talk of the push factors? (Oh wait, do they have a manifesto?).

Well maybe my first sentence could have been clearer. To me someone born here is definitely British, even if born to non British parents, in addition those who have taken British citizenship after a period of living here and contributing to the society are also British. Funky -as you are born to British parents I presume you can also apply for British citizenship, if your parents have not a already done this on your behalf. But you talk about being sent back to your 'homeland' so I presume you don't feel British.

Pacific I presume you can also apply for British citizenship given your circumstances. You say you don't feel British though.

People often question what is meant by being British so how would you both define it?

I agree the immigration debate is complex and emotive but as I have said
It seems to be the recent uncontrolled levels are what seem to concern people the most. I stand by my claim that it is this that has caused strains and anxieties and caused problems for some British families.

Funky -politicians from all parties are entering the immigration debate and not before time, this is not nonsense it is clear to see.

Oh FFS. I'm not othering anyone, despite what you have decided I do not blame anything on immigrants. As the child of economic migrants it'd be pretty hypocritical of me. What I said in my first post was that more increasing the population is not some magic answer it just pushes the problem into the future with ever increasing consequences. At some point the system will break down everywhere.

There is no other, we are all human beings and I would love for everyone to live healthy happy safe lives.

I agree, UKIP are wrong. I think they're a vessel for hate, giving scapegoats to people who want an easy target to blame for economic failures, personal and public.

Do UKIP supporters ever wonder whether Nigel Farage would want to live next to them?

A different perspective on UKIP's arguments are quite well articulated in the article below, but I'm pretty sure their supporters aren't interested in rational thought because it takes a bit more brain power and humanity, it's much easier to blindly hate:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/kieran-turner-dave/the-top-10-ukip-arguments_b_4650602.html

I do not support UKIP, however I do think the immigration debate is an important one so am willing to listen to reasons why people might vote for them. It is very dangerous for any society to stifle debate.

The tone of some of the posts that are anti UKIP show real nastiness in accusing UKIP supporters of stupidity, prejudice and ignorance and as lacking in humanity.

This is really patronising and just as prejudiced.

I go with Viviennemary who summarised it well

I agree that the whole world is heading for disaster unless something is done to control population. How can this earth support more and more people when there are already millions living without the basic needs. And I'm not talking poverty UK style. I'm talking real poverty.

Nasty party. Heinous views. lots of otherwise nice, sane people voting for them, just like lots of otherwise nice, sane people voted for Hitler. History doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes.

It's just a nonsense that we need to have an immigration debate, it really is. The number and facts just do not bear it out. We need to have an inequality debate, we need to have a debate about global neoliberalism and we need to have a debate about the future of the planet. To stop us having those debates, we are having a bloody immigration debate.