To think UKIP are wrong

[pauline6703]

People come to the UK because they are suffering abuse and disadvantage in their own countries.
I think we should offer then a safe place but UKIP seems to want to let them suffer abuse and pain. I think UKIP are wrong.
What do you all thing.

Then you get comments like the one made by JackSkellington labelling UKIP supporters as a vile group of people. A sure way of helping to generate hate!

Sorry, I meant UKIP are a vile group of people (as in the party). However I don't feel sorry for saying so, I don't believe in keeping quiet about it and letting them (again, UKIP the party) spread their hatred. If no-one says anything, their support will increase and it won't be a good thing at all.

Also, re the reference to taking medical workers who have been "trained abroad":

I also find it quite startling that a lot of people here don't seem to see any kind of ethical issue with this.

It effectively amounts to dumping the costs of training medical staff onto relatively poor countries, while enjoying all the benefits ourselves, as a relatively rich country. And I appreciate the hard work and dedication of nurses from XYZ countries who work in the NHS, but as long as they are working in the NHS they are, by definition, not working in their own countries, which are also crying out for nurses in most cases. It isn't fair.

Hiring outside staff a little bit, as a stop-gap measure, is one thing, but it shouldn't be a long-term solution. If we want nurses and so on, fundamentally it should be our responsibility to train more of them.

And if the excuse is "Well, we can't get enough Brits to train as nurses" then we need to ask why that is the case. Perhaps we need to give teenagers better career advice, or toughen up science education. Perhaps we need to (gasp) pay nurses a bit more, or change the career pathways for nurses to make them more tempting.

Whether we the MN collective like it or not until the main 3 parties start to listen to the people who are presently feeling unrepresented UKIP will continue to grow. They look to UKIP and their policies as an alternative to 3 parties that have become so alike. People may be blinkered/unaware or down right wrong but they have a vote! It appears that they are using it. We know it may well peter out in a general election but are the main parties willing to risk it not doing so?
I feel there is an arrogance towards people whose fears may be misplaced but they still have them. After all, MN doesn't like the Daily Fail either but it still attracts a huge readership..those readers are looking for a party that represents their views.

Jack, I understand your point thank you, but have you heard immigrants described on this thread as vile, ignorant, stupid, prejudiced and lacking in humanity and rational thought?

No, and quite rightly so. Yet it seems to be OK to describe members of a legitimate political party in this way.

Whatever one's views on UKIP, in this country they also deserve respect and to have their concerns listened to.

UKIP is not a nastiness that has appeared out of nowhere. It has been created as a result of successive governments not addressing immigration issues. I am paraphrasing Frank Field here, and I completely agree with him. There would be no need for UKIP if recent governments had taken action to control immigration.

In my previous post I meant to refer not only to members of UKIP but those who vote for them, who also have these abusive comments aimed at them.

Majestic

I disagree, immigration has become more of an issue for some people since the recession.

There are plenty of stats that show that immigrants add more into the country than they take out but it's a stat that people conveniently forget in difficult times because they need people to blame.

The fact that some services have not been invested in to keep up with public need is another issue.

I would love the UKIP voters to explain a) the solution to the aging population without immigration b) to admit that the NHS would not work without immigration.

There are plenty of stats that show that immigrants add more into the country than they take out

It isn't just about tax take and economics.

People who are upset enough to vote for UKIP are concerned about culture and identity, maybe about jobs and housing, not about revenues.

We won't address the disillusionment that is fuelling UKIP support by repeating the stats about immigrants being (apparently) cost neutral ad nauseum.

Arsenic

I feel the need to repeat the stats because they are ignored, just as you have done by writing 'apparently', they are not believed.

How do you suggest we solve the pension/old age problem then?

just as you have done by writing 'apparently', they are not believed.

I don't disbelieve them, just not prepared to endorse them when I haven't done the maths myself and I know that the latest study came from the UCL team who brought us the woeful underestimate of Polish migration.

Besides, as I say, I don't think the (probable) tax neutrality of immigrants to the UK is the point for UKIP supporters. Their motivations are, as I say, somewhat different.

How do you suggest we solve the pension/old age problem then?

You seem confused goodness. I'm not anti-immigration. Nor pro-UKIP (god forbid).

UKIP appeals to the hearts of certain voters. you can hate what they stand for, the people that vote for them etc. But, it would be very foolish to just keep repeating the head argument about migration begin cost neutral. I don't know why the 3 main parties cant see it. PEOPLE ARENT LISTENING. they are responding to the info put out by UKIP because UKIP are telling them things in the way that they want to hear it. who believes Labour - "weapons could be fired in 30 mins" who believes the libdems "we will abolish tuition fees if we get into power" who believes the tories "the NHS is safe in our hands" everyone completely underestimates the culture and identity argument. they do this now at their peril. I can see UKIP making huge strides in the next election. the only "good " thing is we don't have PR otherwise then we would have a real shock.

UKIP appeals to the hearts of certain voters.

Exactly that.

everyone completely underestimates the culture and identity argument. they do this now at their peril. I can see UKIP making huge strides in the next election. the only "good " thing is we don't have PR otherwise then we would have a real shock.

You said it better than I managed mummy

The proportional representation scenario is chilling, isn't it?

I would feel sorry for people left here if UKIP get in.

I for one will be off like a shot.

I wish someone would come up with a better strategy for countering them now.

"I wish someone would come up with a better strategy for countering them now."

A strong, center-left "Blue Labour" movement that is neither "pro" nor "anti" immigration, but rather is basically prepared to have an honest public debate about immigration in a way that is honest about winners/losers, trade-offs, and the need for some balance and common sense.

I reckon if we had something like this, a lot of the support for UKIP would start ebbing away.

I am British born and bred going back as far as I can, however, I feel totally unconnected to people who are voting for them. I actually cannot understand why people would even think about it, even as a protest vote.

Actually, the recommendations set out in this highly readable paper here would be a pretty good starting point:

www.britishfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/How-to-Talk-About-Immigration-briefly.pdf

People come to the UK because they are suffering abuse and disadvantage in their own countries.
I think we should offer then a safe place but UKIP seems to want to let them suffer abuse and pain. I think UKIP are wrong.

Do you have any idea how many billions of people could quite feasibly apply that description to themselves when measured as a comparison to our lives here, in terms of health, wealth, standard of living and civil liberties?
Do you propose we just open our borders to anyone, with no limits or conditions, because it's the nice thing to do?

Honestly, the 'space' issue is overdone. The UK uses brownfield land, and land in general, quite inefficiently.

apparently, only a very small percentage of land is being used here (something like 5%).

That's interesting Statesman, thanks.

Goodness the thing is some people clearly do 'feel a connection' - a lot of them.

Statesman is the voice of reason.

"Honestly, the 'space' issue is overdone. The UK uses brownfield land, and land in general, quite inefficiently.

apparently, only a very small percentage of land is being used here (something like 5%)."

Problem is, people don't to live in the middle of nowhere; theyquite understandablywant to live in urban centers where there are jobs and good services, and members of their own diaspora within easy reach. All reasonable enough, but these areas already have lots of pressure on housing.

I am not very politically aware but I am trying to learn more for next year. I know enough to believe that UKIP is a nasty, bigoted, rather thick party however.

Could anyone help me understand something please? UKIP are against paid maternity leave and believe motherhood is a lifestyle choice. I know this is wrong but I can't articulate exactly why, and I would like to be able to put the other side of the argument that mothers are a 'disaster' in the workplace (I have a UKIP supporter in the family ). How can I explain why the cost to businesses is justified? The same family member (female so doubly ) once said that sending women to university is a waste of money because they only work for a few years then leave their jobs to bring up children.