To think that the new SNP leader just pledged to ignore the will of the majority of Scottish people?

[RudeBarbandCustard]

Forgive me if I'm being naive - I may well be.

But Nicola Sturgeon pledging to continue to fight for Scottish independence is essentially a pledge to fight against the majority of the Scottish people's democratically expressed wishes?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423

I mean, it couldn't be clearer. The majority of Scottish people voted No. So she's essentially saying "Hey, majority of Scotland - I'm going to ignore what you voted for in a democratic process, and fight for the opposite!".

It smacks of arrogance, and a complete disregard for what people voted for!

I may be missing something though, but it's intriguing and bugging me so I'd be interested to hear what others think.

tabula I get the feeling some people see Coburn through a special filter. I'm a bit confused about someone who admires both him and Lesley Riddoch, but it is late so maybe my brain is just not up to that one tonight.

As a No campaigner, I cringed when UKIP tried to get involved. Just like I cringed when Dave, Nick and Ed flew up.

'However, if, as you predict, UKIP win a majority, then THEY will be one of the 'Better Together' party, won't they?'

Good point, but those arrogant spinners won't let UKIP in because they are the "fruitcakes". Chuka Umunna says we are "vile" etc. We are the outsiders that the Establishment want to stop.

Although yet again on Radical Independence Campaign and some of their allied sites, there is some excellent analysis saying that Better Together really need UKIP even though they keep them at arms' length.

I don't really understand your logic here Claig

You're saying that the Better Together parties were shit, and handled it very badly (agreed), and that the UK wants change and you predict that UKIP will bring that change.

Yet you're then suggesting that if a referendum came about in 2020, the same idiots who made such a mess of the BT campaign will still be there to cock it up?

So either the UK will have change, and a new team will campaign for a No vote. Or there will be no change, and the same team remains.

Can't have it both ways.

(and I also don't believe there will be another referendum in 2020, so it's all academic anyway)

Sorry, X post with you there Claig

'I'm a bit confused about someone who admires both him and Lesley Riddoch'

Because they are both genuine. No spin, not like the rest.

I wish we had someone like Lesley Riddoch in politics down here. Totally genuine, totally real, excellent. It doesn't matter if she diasgrees with Farage etc, what matters is she is real and so is he.

"That is his type of humour where he riles them up and cracks their facade."

Oh yes, jokes about voters being bribed by haggis are hilarious...and not at all insulting to voters

"tabula I get the feeling some people see Coburn through a special filter."

I suppose it might make him tolerable right enough, but I'm glad I don't have one.

Yes, the visit.. I remember thinking "you just don't get it, do you"?

I think we can all agree that what Westminster needs are more genuine people. Thats something we all want, whatever party they represent.

I'm sick of the spin and the career politicians.

Although yet again on Radical Independence Campaign and some of their allied sites, there is some excellent analysis saying that Better Together really need UKIP even though they keep them at arms' length.

Have you considered the possibility that Radical Independence people would say that to smear Better Together by linking them with UKIP?

What is your glorious leader Farage's view of Radical Independence?

'Yet you're then suggesting that if a referendum came about in 2020, the same idiots who made such a mess of the BT campaign will still be there to cock it up? '

I don't think there will be a referendum in 2020 and I think the SNP have made a fatal mistake by talking about this EU referendum veto. That will trigger opposition from England and pro-union parties. UKIP will rise in England by 2020 and possibly displace the Tories. Then they be become a force in Scotland too.

But UKIP are a real new force that challenges as we have seen in the landslide in Clacton and the possible victory in Rochester. They will be successful because they challenge.

'Have you considered the possibility that Radical Independence people would say that to smear Better Together by linking them with UKIP?'

No, because Radical Independence are right. Read them and some communist site that links to them. Even though I am a conservative, they are right because they understand that Better Together are hypocrites, they are the "love bombers", the phoneys and they fear UKIP but also need them because they understand that they are losing people's hearts and minds just as they have lost them in Clacton and Rochester. They have no answer because UKIP are real and they are phoney.

Personally I think UKIP's success is down to a protest against the current Tory govt.

Once they replace Cameron with someone more likeable and / or Labour find a suitable leader and sort themselves out... the UKIP protest vote will fade away.

And let's be honest - they're never going to succeed in Scotland or Wales.

People said they couldn't succeed in England. They are shaking the Tories in their heartlands. They were called "fruitcakes", "looneys" and "racists", but they are way ahead in the byelection polls and 31% of people say they will vote UKIP in the General Election if they think they have a chance in those constituencies.

UKIP started as a Conservative revolt against the Conservatives. The Tories lost half their membership under Cameron. Most will not go back because they don't trust the Tories any more, they have lost credibility, possibly in the way that Labour might have lost credibility in Scotland.

Parties make mistakes and new parties rise. Labour have made mistakes in Scotland and the SNP will take advantage. The Tories can't turn it around because they are not a people's party, they are only a big business party and that is not enough in these changing times.

Are the people in Scotland really so different from the people in England? Will things change in Scotland, will Labour even fade? Then what happens, what is next?

People are not different - our demographics are. I've already explained why UKIP aren't about to make inroads up here so not going to repeat myself.

What made you think I was a Conservative voter as opposed to a Labour voter?

'What made you think I was a Conservative voter as opposed to a Labour voter?'

Because you talk a lot of sense.

But UKIP is not about demographics or immigration, it is much more fundamental than that.

Some analysts told us that ENglish people and Scottish people are different. They said that England has this tradition of "individual freedom" and the Scots are more communitarian and socialist. I can't believe that that is true. Would Scots put up with biometric Labour ID cards and DNA databases and "named persons" etc etc?

The same "love bombers" that loved bombed the Scots have tried it in Rochester and it has bombed.

"The prime minister has tried his best to hold back the Ukip tide. He has visited Rochester and Strood four times already. Until recently there was a convention that prime ministers stayed away from byelections. But with Clacton having already fallen, this one was simply too important. He had to stop the rot. However, such is the strength of the anti-politics mood that the tactic of “love-bombing” seems, if anything, to have backfired. Rochester and Strood is full of people who not only distrust mainstream politicians but seem to have become hostile to their advances."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/15/rochester-strood-ukip-analysis-greens-conservatives-labour

There is a revolution going on in Scotland and England and just as the SNP affects us down here, UKIP will eventually affect the SNP.

"A Ukip victory will transform the landscape of British politics

THE political establishment is quaking with fear.

Its cosy cartel is coming to an end, broken by its contempt for the British people and for Britain’s national interests."

www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/536154/Ukip-victory-will-transform-landscape-british-politics

The contempt of the ruling class for the British people is finally coming to an end.

I'm completely bemused that a thread about the SNP and Scottish Independence has evolved into a series of posts about how marvellous UKIP are.

It is only me who thinbks UKIP are marvellous. All I have said is that I think UKIP will eventually challenge the SNP in Scotland, not the dying, tired old parties.

But UKIP is not about demographics or immigration, it is much more fundamental than that

I suspect that the average UKIP voter will not be basing their vote on anything more than their resentment of the levels of immigration, their concerns at the perceived level of interference by the EU, and their feeling that no-one is listening to the average white British (although by that I mean mainly English) person as a result. I'm not sure there is much more to their decision making process.

What we have in Scotland at this current time (as I've said) is a very different set of demographics - far fewer immigrants for a start. However, if the SNP had got their way and we were now an independent country, the number of immigrants would increase over the coming years in order to grow the economy, and our renewed membership of the EU (to which the SNP was committed) would certainly see the feelings towards both being replicated, leading to a subsequent growth in support for UKIP (or rather, the new SIP as it would be) - although to what level I'm not sure.

I don't really want to continue to debate UKIP though as this is not what the thread is about, so I'll not pursue this line of discussion.

This is from Gerry Hassan, author of "The Strange Death of Labour in Scotland". He doesn't like UKIP.

"What does the rise of Ukip mean for Scottish and British politics?
Gerry Hassan 9 May 2014"
...
it illustrates that just as most of Scotland doesn’t seem to get Ukip, more problematically for the party, it just doesn’t understand Scotland.

Despite this we have to be careful of the ‘no Ukip here we are Scottish’ line which plays out in parts of Scotland. It is another manifestation of the complacent, comfortable account which is bought into by too many in Scotland. This is one based on the reality that most Scots were anti-Thatcher and anti-Tory and don’t want to vote for Ukip, but from this to jump to the assumption that Scotland is a social democracy which is inclusive, egalitarian and more redistributive in its public policy choices than the rest of the UK, is a problem.
...
Ukip are set to poll incredibly well in the European elections.
...
If this occurs, a political earthquake will hit British politics with huge Scottish consequences. First, if Ukip triumph in the European elections, British politics will never be the same again.
...
All of this will be contrasted to the supposedly benign, progressive politics north of the border.

There are pitfalls in the above. For a start, the rise of Ukip is part of an anti-mainstream politics trend which can be seen across the West and to which Scotland is not immune. There is also the simplicity of drawing political assumptions just from the difference in Ukip votes north and south of the border. To illustrate this, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that on a low turnout Ukip could win one Scottish MEP representative.

The deeper problem is choosing to reinforce a certain view of Scotland from the rise of Ukip. Scottish opinion is, across a range of areas, just as open and persuasive to a right wing, populist agenda as elsewhere in the UK: with significant majorities believing in the virtues of an anti-welfare, anti-immigration stance. This can be seen in support for the benefits cap (82%) and a tough position on immigration (69%)."

www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/gerry-hassan/what-does-rise-of-ukip-mean-for-scottish-and-british-politics

But anyway I know nothing about Scotland, so maybe Jim Murphy will be the one who challenges the SNP.

claig sorry if I missed it , but where - roughly - do you live?

From up here, having lived through the last year of Scottish politics, I think the only party that could challenge the SNP at the moment would be a coalition of the unionist parties, which seems very unlikely.

Perhaps, hopefully, the prospect of another referendum in the next few years will mean No voters vote tactically in the GE.

I know nothing about Scotland

Right.

Crikey. Does MN have a derailment of the day?

Lonny

That Bella Caledonia article is scary. I really think it can't be said too often. Yes lost decisively.