Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the new SNP leader just pledged to ignore the will of the majority of Scottish people?

543 replies

RudeBarbandCustard · 14/11/2014 17:28

Forgive me if I'm being naive - I may well be.

But Nicola Sturgeon pledging to continue to fight for Scottish independence is essentially a pledge to fight against the majority of the Scottish people's democratically expressed wishes?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423

I mean, it couldn't be clearer. The majority of Scottish people voted No. So she's essentially saying "Hey, majority of Scotland - I'm going to ignore what you voted for in a democratic process, and fight for the opposite!".

It smacks of arrogance, and a complete disregard for what people voted for!

I may be missing something though, but it's intriguing and bugging me so I'd be interested to hear what others think.

OP posts:
AgentCooper · 15/11/2014 17:18

The referendum was draining for me. I was Yes for a long time but went with No in the end because I didn't feel there was enough certainty re: the economy and jobs in the event of independence. My DH's job could have gone and we would have struggled. My friend at work's DH's job would almost definitely have gone and they would have been fucked. I couldn't vote yes in those circumstances. I hated reading all the accusatory stuff about self interest and fear on Facebook afterwards. For someone on 13K a year, with 2 kids, who needs their partner's income, fear is a pretty legit response in my book.

But I felt very conflicted. I do want us to devolve power as far away from WM as possible. I read a lot of nasty, racist stuff about the 'national character' of the Scots which made me want to vote a big, furious Yes.

The SNP's reason for being is Scottish independence. It always has been. Lots of folk scorned the argument that Scotland never gets the WM govt it votes for by saying Britain gets the govt it votes for. It's the same with the Scottish parliament. If you don't like the SNP or the prospect of independence, make your voice heard, organise, exercise your democratic right. I know plenty of folk are doing so.

When people, often abroad, ask me how I voted, I happily tell them I wasn't so much a No but a Not Yet. Exhausting as the whole thing was, we do need to keep engaging with and hearing each other. This is a good country with good, politically engaged people, IMO. We deserve more solid plans and answers from those in power as we proceed.

flippinada · 15/11/2014 17:19

With the caveat that this is a very unsophisticated analysis, I think the 'make no difference' people would fall broadly into two camps:

1 - people who were ideologically pro-independence anyway
2 - people who had no intention of voting yes, so it wouldn't affect their decision either way

flippinada · 15/11/2014 17:23

My last post is cos I realised the poll didn't specify whether the respondents were yes or no voters - just for the sake of clarity.

"I hated reading all the accusatory stuff about self interest and fear on Facebook afterwards. For someone on 13K a year, with 2 kids, who needs their partner's income, fear is a pretty legit response in my book"

AgentCooper this is what I was trying to articulate upthread - you put it much better than me, I think.

AgentCooper · 15/11/2014 17:49

It did my head in, flip. As if you should never, ever be afraid or wary of anything because fear is for the weak. Utter shite.

And the whole 'Scotland has just proved itself to be a colony' business. I wrote my doctoral thesis on colonialism in Africa and that made me rage. It was offensive. I felt like screaming 'where is your self respect, where is your respect for your fellow Scots? Stand up and get on with whatever is next.' The majority of Yessers I knew didn't behave like that, any more than the No voters I knew participated in the fight in George Square or wave the Union Jack about in Yes-strong areas. But I was really angry at the people on both sides who did.

bigdreadiedad · 15/11/2014 18:05

Not at all OP?
When has nationalism ever been democratic?

ChelsyHandy · 15/11/2014 18:11

From the excellent article linked by Lonny "Look at Noon's quote and ask yourself what's so special about the Scots that every single one of us will be impervious to the financial havoc easily wreaked by the international markets or the restructuring of our economy which will follow independence?"

The SNP's White Paper on the Scottish Independence actually tells you their approach to this, in relation to its racist policy in breach of EU law of discriminating between Scots and English students on tuition fees:

(2013, Art. 238): "We believe that the unique and unprecedented position of a post-independent Scotland will enable us to continue our current policy in a way which is consistent with the principles of free movement across the EU as a whole and which is compatible with EU requirements"; Art. 239: "Are you confident that the Court of Justice of the EU will support this position? Each member state is free to adopt its own domestic policies, consistent with the objectives of the EU. We believe that our fees policies contribute to student mobility across the wider EU, while addressing the consequences of the unique situation of Scottish independence. In these circumstances we believe that it will be possible to deliver our policy in a way which is compatible with EU requirements".

I've discussed this with a judge at the Court of Justice and obviously they were very surprised to find out the Court had given such an opinion, when obviously no such thing had occurred - its role, as a court, is to remain neutral and clearly it cannot express opinions other than on cases before it. Parts of that manifesto were like things schoolchildren, no, make that failing schoolchildren, would write. To be fair, I do actually think the White Paper got the Court mixed up with the EC Commission, but its still cringeworthily inaccurate on that basis too.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 15/11/2014 18:11

Agentcooper I think all hyperbole is dangerous (and I'm not trying to be reductive about racism by saying that). During the referendum I saw probably an equal amount of racism from Scots and English, usually triggered by high profile things, for eg the Newsnight special which was shown across the UK nearly melted my Twitter feed.

But there's another kind of hyperbole that to me is just as dangerous. The 'we're Scottish so we're lovely', the 'we'll be more socially just because we're Scottish', the 'this is a nice nationalism, we're Scottish!'. I felt and feel deeply uncomfortable about this lack of critical evaluation of our culture and characteristics. It's dangerous for any nation to start believing its own press.

OOAOML · 15/11/2014 18:22

I"'ve missed loads because I took the kids out, and I'm going out soon. But a few thoughts:

More powers with no vote - hopefully the fact the commission has taken submissions from organisations, companies and individuals means they are considering all views not just politicians. If sweeping change was proposed I think there's a real case for a vote.

The Vow - as far s I can see this was restating promises made earlier in the summer. At first they said they would be dependent on the GE (which I thought was a mistake and said so at the time - the GE needs to be fought and voted on all relevant issues). Then the same promises we're restated but the plan was made for the commission and the timetable introduced. I think the timetable is too short to achieve meaningful change, but hopefully this will be the start of a wider UK process ( I said that in my own submission). Otherwise I think we'll get something rushed that doesn't meet what people on either side want (bearing in mind there is a spectrum of opinion from both Yes and No voters).

How to keep everyone engaged - wish I had the answer to this! It is still v close to the vote, and finding a way to work together without offending each other could be difficult but is ideally what we will. I've to.

Re NS comments - thinking about this, I think we need to remember the context. She is the new leader at a party conference, with lots of new members. Clearly her speech is aimed at them, not at everyone else. I had an instinctive sinking feeling reaction, but I think I need to move past that. I'm not going to join the SNP, not likely to vote for them again, but one of the strengths of Scottish politics in the past has been cross party co-operation. Obviously the SNP have a majority, so they don't need to depend on other votes as happened in the early years of Holyrood, but I'm hopeful that we can move back to more consensus.

Sometimes I almost feel like we need a referendum recovery programme. Not to put either side back in their box - we should be using all that energy to push for changes that will improve life here - but to help some of us move out of the indyref battle frame of mind. And I know I don't always help on here, because I still feel v emotional about what I've been through. And it is a subject that can be hard to discuss without getting emotional. I'm well aware I fought against the ambitions of others, because I thought it wasn't the right path. I would love to be able to work with people to achieve change without going down the independence route, and I'd love them not to resent me for it.

Hopefully we will get there.

AgentCooper · 15/11/2014 18:28

Oh, I absolutely agree, Lonny. I want nothing to do with the SNP's blanket Scottishness or hagiography. Being Scottish, I guess I felt the anti-Scots racism the most keenly but I was regularly disgusted by idiots talking about 'The English' as an oppressive force. Being Scottish absolutely does not make us fairer, nicer or better and I feel like a lot of the SNP's rhetoric implied that. But equally people have a right to respond when folk dismiss their country as a crappy, deluded wee shithole which lies down and takes corruption. We sorely need better, more transparent political discourse which doesn't just try to enflame ordinary people and take us all for a ride.

flippinada · 15/11/2014 18:36

I've just re-read the Carol Craig article linked above - I first read it prior to voting and it helped crystallise what were, for me, the important issues. It was interesting to re-visit it in light of the outcome.

BakewellSlice · 15/11/2014 18:45

As an English person I got so fed up of being told how "the English" (so that would be me then!) differ from the Scots on social issues. I think some think that they don't mean me and others maybe think I'd eat a baby on a roll each morning if unfortunate enough to be outwith the gentle restraining influence of Scotland. (Forgive semi-joking hyperbole.)

Personally I don't want to engage any more I just want to leave. So I can be socially active in a country where I don't feel I need to apologise for my accent. Or answer the question how long I've lived here..Hmm as posed by Rita earlier. Just about summed it up for me I'm afraid.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 15/11/2014 18:49

That's such a good point Bake. I mean, if I, a scot am a Tory cunt* baby-hater, then I actually don't have the words to describe you Grin

*i did get called a Tory cunt while campaigning for BT. To which I answered 'excuse me, I'm no Tory!'

SirChenjin · 15/11/2014 19:04

I got "fucking Tory lackey" Grin

ChelsyHandy · 15/11/2014 19:13

How to keep everyone engaged - wish I had the answer to this! It is still v close to the vote, and finding a way to work together without offending each other could be difficult but is ideally what we will. I've to.

Well, aside from negative engagement, in terms of thinking it would be nice to see NS try to limit the abusive comments made by her party members and other forms of attempted censorship-by-bullying that has come to define the SNP (possibility to make politically aggravated harassment a crime?), I would suggest a form of "competitive constitutionalism".

I'd like to see a written UK Constitution contained in one document, or at least an English Constitution, with constitutional matters to that extent devolved to the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments. Its a wonderful political opportunity to create a legacy and go down in history for any politician. On the European front, such a Constitution should contain, word for word, the International Charter on Human Rights (not the "Scottish version" so ambiguously offered by the White Paper). And then I'd like to see the Scottish Government rise to the challenge of matching it.

It would have to be backed by a proper, independent Constitutional Court. The Scottish system of Government has far too little division of powers between the Executive, the Judiciary and the Legislature. You may have rights under Scots law, but how on earth do you go about enforcing them, and where (never mind finding out about them)? For instance, so many Scots know about the Small Claims system and how it works (even though the financial limit has always been lower than in England and Wales). How many know that for many property related matters, it is now to be replaced by a new system of "First Tier Tribunals", and a whole new set of rules? Parliament arguably shouldn't be making changes to the judiciary in this manner.

AgentCooper · 15/11/2014 19:18

Well, as long as it was a Morton's well-fired roll, all would be forgiven Bake Wink

Seriously, though, I am so sorry that idiots have made you feel unwelcome. You are very welcome in my book and we need more smart people like you!

AgentCooper · 15/11/2014 19:24

I'd like to see a written UK Constitution contained in one document, or at least an English Constitution, with constitutional matters to that extent devolved to the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments. Its a wonderful political opportunity to create a legacy and go down in history for any politician

I would support this, Chelsy. It could be a great opportunity.

ChelsyHandy · 15/11/2014 19:31

In terms of insults and abuse, I've had plenty, mostly along the lines of telling me to leave Scotland, although the one that sticks in my mind most was "my hubby is asking how I know awful people like you".

ChelsyHandy · 15/11/2014 19:35

BakewellSlice Or answer the question how long I've lived here..hmm as posed by Rita earlier. Just about summed it up for me I'm afraid.

Yep, I read that and didn't comment then, but I thought why on earth is that relevant? As if you need some form of qualification of Scottishness by dint of experience to have an opinion. It was so parochial and small minded. Or as if everyone has to be the same. No doubt Rita will explain it away but I've had too many similar questions (and I have a Scottish accent but am constantly asked where I'm from, on the basis of my appearance, which is a whole different ball game).

Roseformeplease · 15/11/2014 20:08

I think the SNP should actually get on with some governing of Scotland not making a fuss about the referendum.

The continuing council tax freeze (why? The poor don't pay council tax. Ah, yes, it is a bribe) means that my local pool may close, schools are being massively cutback on in my region and the roads are a disgrace. I wouldn't mind paying another £10 a month to ensure that things were sorted. The NHS, also devolved, has problems.

The new SQA exams have massive flaws, in spite of the SQA doing an almost permanent back paddle on assessments (4 in English at Higher and N5). The curriculum (Nationals? Funny that!) has a parochial and narrow focus on things Scottish. Not the study of WW1, but Scotland's role in WW1. Not poetry, but Scottish poetry. Scottish plants.

All of this is very inward looking, very much about Scotland the Brave and not about a high quality education. Even the fact that University fees are only paid in Scottish universities means that, for some courses (e.g Pharmacology, only 1 course in Scotland) pupils get no choice. For others, it is very restricted and the free tuition means that it is the poorest who have the least choice. The way loans now work means that accommodation fees have gone up massively, funnily enough to the same amount students can borrow.

Schools are often weak but there is this inbuilt horror or looking for ways to improve from outside, especially England. A colleague, newly moved from England, made a comment about a tiny change she had seen done in England. She was practically hissed.

So, Nicola. You lost. Get on with sorting out the mess you left while you were busy campaigning. Get on with governing.

SirChenjin · 15/11/2014 20:17

Completely agree Rose.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 15/11/2014 21:30

Yy rose. What they don't seem to get is if they get on with delivering real, robust, not vote-buying change, people may actually change their minds! If you show me an Indy Scotland would be better, I'd have to be pretty dumb to ignore that, right?

Toadinthehole · 16/11/2014 05:58

I don't approve of the rude remarks directed at the Scots from south of the border, either before or after the referendum result. The truth is, however, that a good many of those Scots complaining about it are in many cases conscious hypocrites and others are employing a double-standard they themselves cannot recognise. I suspect that all this talk about "Westminster" being the problem for Scotland is recognised by most English people as the drivel it is. Lots of people south of the border don't like Westminster. However, they don't wish to break up the country to fix it. Anyone who has paid attention to the independence debate for any time can easily draw the conclusion that supporters of Scottish independence are driven by the desire to keep Scotland's wealth to itself notwithstanding the nationalists' barefaced cheek in claiming that this is socialism in action. They will also note that many of those who voted no would have voted yes had they believed that Scotland would have been better off. They will know that there is a deep-seated historical mistrust of England being overbearing, allied with a historical narrative of victimhood with the English being the beastly aggressor.

It shows an brass neck or genuine unconsciousness to claim that Scottish independence has nothing to do with English oppression while banging on about freedom, Freedom City and "declarations of opportunity" at Arbroath Abbey, but there you go. The fact that Wings over Scotland was cited as a balanced source of information shows the blindness of nationalists on this point, and to watch them complain about the derision they have received in response is, a pleasure remarkable.

There is of course another double standard now being played out in terms of Scotland's constitutional settlement and a possible referendum re-run. I wish that senior politicians in the UK simply told the SNP to take a hike. It is not true to say they have ignored Scottish nationalism. Rather, they have been so frightened by it that they have tended to cave in. Devolution would not have happened without Westminster legislation, nor would the independence referendum. The UK government could simply have refused to allow a referendum or respect the result of an unofficial one on the basis that it had no mandate from the UK as a whole to break up the country. There was also no mandate for "the Vow", nor is there any mandate for a constitutional settlement for Scotland that gives it an (even more) privileged position within the UK. Given the spinelessness with which successive UK governments have treated Scottish nationalism, it is quite natural for the SNP and its acolytes to make ever more shrill demands, even to the extent of proposing a fiscal pact (along with various other pacts) with the hated "Westminster", not to mention blithely stating that the rest of the world (the EU, NATO) would automatically give an independent Scotland all she wanted because it was all just so reasonable.

Further demands for a referendum should be treated with the contempt they deserve, even in the event of the UK departure from the EU, which doubtlessly many, many in Scotland support (I don't, by the way). I did laugh at the comment upthread that not declaring UDI meant the result was being "respected". Actually it would have been fundamentally undemocratic, not to mention an act of rebellion which would have been supported by precisely no one in the international community except maybe Russia, North Korea and Ecuador. Furthermore, repeated referendums until the "right answer" is received are not only an insult to the voters, but also have an effect beyond Scottish borders. As such, it is not a matter for Scotland alone and, as a matter of law, morals, politics, and good governance, any government at Westminster is entitled to refuse to hold a further referendum. It is not just about Scotland, believe it or not, and any right of Scottish self-determination does not trump the ability of UK governments to get on with governing, now or in the future. Democracy does not stop at the Scottish border.

As for the SNP, now were I living in Scotland, I might well vote for them at Holyrood. Yes, you read that correctly - for the reason that I mistrust them less than Labour to make a hash of running things. It is simply no good for nationalists to claim that every vote for the SNP is a vote in favour of every jot and tittle of its manifesto. This, incidentally, is why UKIP are picking up so much support south of the border, despite their being permanently maladroit and rabidly right-wing. It is because few have any faith in the major parties to address the question of European integration and immigration (not a problem in Scotland, but a major, major problem in the SE which is one of the most densely populated areas in the world).

PhaedraIsMyName · 16/11/2014 08:06

I emailed the two fish making exactly the point the OP makes and asking why neither of them bothered to turn up at the church service on the Sunday. Neither of them replied.

Sturgeon is pathetic. She is not behaving as a leader of the country but is solely determined to push her own idiotic nationalist agenda.

TheBogQueen · 16/11/2014 09:39

these services Phaedra?

TheBogQueen · 16/11/2014 09:41

Sorry wrong link!