to think that you shouldn't fake religion to get a school place?

[Carrierpenguin]

A friend of mine became catholic when she married her husband, then they split up. She hadnt been religious beforehand, but now she's chosen to go to church every week for the last year in order to get her ds into the local catholic school. She's told me that she doesn't believe in all that 'mumbo jumbo' but the church school gets the best results locally. I understand that everyone wants the best for their children, but this seems a bit disingenuous.

I suppose it's open to all - if you're willing to fake religion you can get into the best school, I suspect that the good results are due to parental influence as you have to be very keen to commit to two years of Sundays at church, presumably this filters out parents who don't care about education, whereas the secular schools cater to all.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose? Aibu to think faking religion is not ethical though?

Oh my god, your children pray 4 times a day, why would anyone do this?

Religion is a form of control. It's not real you know, they made it all up to keep the masses in line.

My 5 year old worked out its all too fanciful to be real. My response " yes darling they are just stories."

Seriously find some fun stuff to do with your children not reading an old dusty fairy book.

Even if you do not believe that is quite rude Iristutu. Faith schools probably perform well because of their religious ethos and principles. Take this away and they will be just like the other schools people are trying to avoid!

"Even if you do not believe that is quite rude Iristutu. Faith schools probably perform well because of their religious ethos and principles. Take this away and they will be just like the other schools people are trying to avoid!"

I agree. Ridiculous and rude.

Faith schools perform well because they are selective. Nothing to do with their religious ethos. Undersubscribed faith schools do no better than any other school in the same catchment.

The vast majority of the year 6 parents in our school who choose the Catholic secondary for their children do so because of the results, not because of the religious ethos.

This form of selection is self-perpetuating, hence why some faith schools have better results.

Actually it's not rude, it's an opinion, it's very rude to suggest people can only have good morals or principles because they are religious.

Schools are funded by the start and religion should not bar anyone from attending. It's discriminating against children due to religion.

I agree with you 100%' iristutu. I just don't think you need to descend to ad hominems. Apart from anything else, they will be leaped upon and used as distractions in the discussion.........

Iristitu. You are paying for Islamic education too. And other faiths. It's a multi-cultural landscape here in the UK. And we have freedom of choice. Irrespective of your views on my personal choices for my family, the discussion is about whether or not you should fake it. I think if you do, you need to be aware of what you're committing to, and not belittle it. And question whether it is genuinely the best thing for your child. First Holy Communion prep with a seething adult at home? Nah.

It's great we have a multi cultural landscape here in the Uk, we just don't need faith schools. All we do is segregate communities. School is about education, I fail to see how religion adds anything. If you want your child to be religious do it in your own time.

Religion causes conflict, strip it out of schools and you truly reflect society.

Teach it as a subject not reality.

"Iristitu. You are paying for Islamic education too. And other faiths."

Are we? Is there a state school where practising Muslims get priority?

WooWooOwl: "It is not the fault of the churches at all. You are right that they could change the admissions criteria, but it would be better all round to improve the schools that parents are trying to avoid."

Just to come back to this (was out last night). Saying "it would be better to improve the schools that parents are trying to avoid" makes it sound as if nobody has ever thought of this. But of course they have - successive governments do try and improve schools through things like the inspection process, sending good head teachers on secondment to underperforming schools and through funds that go to schools in more deprived areas. You might not agree with the government's education policies (I don't, in fact) but the truth is that governments do try and improve poor schools. But it's not an easy thing to do.

The other point, sadly, is that church schools are keen to protect their reputation as being "better" and they do it by devising a set of admissions rules that to a large extent (though not always) favour middle-class children with parents who are prepared to work the system. You don't have to have a set of rules that demand baptism and church attendance. You could do what most state schools do, which is prioritise children based on their proximity to the school. You could even, if you were trying to be good Christians, give priority to children from deprived or troubled backgrounds. Imagine if a school did that! Just think what a fine opportunity that offers to show the world a living example of tolerance, kindness and concern for the poor in practice.

But no, church schools want to protect their cosy little clubs of nice, well-behaved children from nice backgrounds. And then they have the nerve to set themselves up as arbiters of morality for the rest of us.

As the late John Junor used to say: Pass the sick bag, Alice.

It's fucking ridiculous that supposed state schools are even allowed to use religion as a criterion for admission. There should be a complete separation of state and religion IMO - what the fuck does religion have to do with teaching kids in the 21st century???

What's really not ethical is the fact that tax-paying atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths are subsidising these exclusive ex faith schools with little or no chance of accessing them. Organised religion should be permitted to open faith schools, but only at their own cost.

The funny thing is that most people opose state funded faith schools, yet successive governments continue to promote them through fear of upsetting a highly vocal religious minority.

Despite heroic claims about 59% of Britons being Christian, the reality is that this is cultural identity. Actual church membership is under 5% of the population of the UK. We are, to all intents and purposes, a secular nation, and one of the most godless in the world (statistically speaking).

It's unacceptable that a powerful and vocal minority continue to manipulate the education system in this way. I would also suggest that it's futile; faith and regliious attendance continue to decline amongst the British-Born population, and it only rising amongst first generation immigrants, so the indoctrination of faith schools obviously isn't even working.

The best way to teach tolerance and understanding is to mix with all types of people. Segregating people out adds to the problems.

Why not fake religion? it is built on fantasy and a few moral guidelines anyway. Built on lies and deceit, just look at creationism. There is little more left to fake.

Of course there is an argument to say don't join in with that or you become as they do, probably a line in the bible about that somewhere.

Canon law might oblige Catholics to seek a catholic education for their children, but they can achieve that at Sunday school (or after school). Plenty of other religions manage to adequately indoctrinate educate children without specialist state school provision.

I'm in Sydney and around 30% of children here go to a private school at least for high school, so it's pretty common. I only know of one private school in Sydney that is not religious but IME the majority of people at these schools are not actually religious at all.

Lots of children are christened just to tick a box on the enrolment form. I don't know anyone who as lied to their child or told them to lie. Children aren't quizzed at the school gates - they just walk into the school and get on with their maths lessons like at any other school.

Here it's ALL about prestige and the whole thing is about as un-christian as you can get, but then IMO much of what goes on in church organisations is pretty un-christian. People just want a high-calbre education for their children and they're willing to say they believe any old mumbo-jumbo if that's what it takes.

I'm not entirely sure who cares?

"What's really not ethical is the fact that tax-paying atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths are subsidising these exclusive ex faith schools with little or no chance of accessing them."

As a tax payer who sadly may never have children, I feel the same way about paying for services that I now have little or no chance of accessing. Except I don't really because that's not how paying tax works!

Munningcockery
God and Mammon : its on their website too
www.stmarysbattersea.org.uk/Getting_Involved.html

I have gone to church to get my 3 children into the church school. The other two schools in the area are not good and discriminate on gender, and I did not want them to go to single sex schools.

We talk about it, I am an active atheist, they understand that to get into thus school we gave to go to church. We take books and read them inside the hymn book . We have a laugh at the nonsense of it all.
I don't feel in any way hypocritical, and for those who say they wouldn't do it, I bet they would if the circumstances meant they had to make a long journey to a bad school because they were not allowed to use the school on their neighbourhood.

The think I do find hypocritical is that a Christian organisation should run a school using mainly public taxes, and the education resources for the local area, and make it only for the benefit of their own. If I was Christian I would be embarrassed by this and would do the right thing in changing these discriminatory admission rules.

"We talk about it, I am an active atheist, they understand that to get into thus school we gave to go to church. We take books and read them inside the hymn book . We have a laugh at the nonsense of it all. "

Wow. Just ........wow.

Nobody has ever satisfactorily explained to me why it's OK to have tax payer funded faith schools, but not tax payer funded faith hospitals.