to think that you shouldn't fake religion to get a school place?

[Carrierpenguin]

A friend of mine became catholic when she married her husband, then they split up. She hadnt been religious beforehand, but now she's chosen to go to church every week for the last year in order to get her ds into the local catholic school. She's told me that she doesn't believe in all that 'mumbo jumbo' but the church school gets the best results locally. I understand that everyone wants the best for their children, but this seems a bit disingenuous.

I suppose it's open to all - if you're willing to fake religion you can get into the best school, I suspect that the good results are due to parental influence as you have to be very keen to commit to two years of Sundays at church, presumably this filters out parents who don't care about education, whereas the secular schools cater to all.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose? Aibu to think faking religion is not ethical though?

I'm Catholic, and tbh I don't care who comes to mass on Sunday or why. Church is open to anyone, for any reason - there's nothing to stop people just walking in. They might come out of curiousity, or for a specific purpose. It doesn't really matter to me.

I think it shows dedication - I certainly wouldn't bother if I didn't believe it/get something from it spiritually! I would be in bed or the pub.

However, I fear that some people may put the hours in and not get the result they want. Don't priests have to write a report supporting the child's application to a Catholic school? (no children yet so not sure about this). Because if they do, it is very easy to tell the 'fakers'.

TBH I am more annoyed by people who eschew private school because of 'principles' and then spend £100k extra on a house in a good catchment area. That's just hypocritical.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose

The reason why not is because it is a deeply unfair and discriminatory way to spend taxpayers' money. I applaud your friend. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. When faced by a deeply wrong and unfair system, she has worked hard to get the best for her children. The problem, is that the only children who can go to that school are the ones with equally devoted parents - so even very hardworking and bright children who aren't lucky to have parents who can do that for them have no chance of attending.

Ha, gennz you could be me, I was just coming on to write an almost identical post.

Our nearest school was pretty crap and I didn't want DS to go there, so I was glad I had started going to mass again, and had got DS baptised etc. as it meant he would get into the fantastic local catholic school (and also the catholic secondary which is the best school in the town by a mile, and always has been).

As it has turned out we moved to too far away from that school, but we are in the catchment of a couple of nice schools - but I ended up rather enjoying taking the kids to mass and they have made a few little friends, so we have continued to go.

The system is fairly shit and I do agree that faith shouldn't really come into it. Having said that I also think that your child only gets one shot at education and you do have to be a little 'every man for themselves', so if parents care enough to sit through mass every Sunday for how ever long, then good luck to them!

The problem with 'every man for themselves' is that not everyone is competing on level ground. You have to have knowledge, means and motivation to play the system. It means that the children whose parents have none of these are always the ones who lose out - and they're the children who most need a break in life. What we need is a system that the already better off (and I include myself in this) can't rig to their own advantage at all times.

what about the people who pretend they live in a property in a catchment area or rent for a short time in the area. i think that is worse and it does happen.

oh bollocks takeiteasy Everyone has a different take on what it means to be Catholic. My mum is an absolutely die-hard Catholic, goes every day if she can manage it - but admits she's not convinced about transubstantiation, doesn't agree with the Church's position on gays, women priests, contraception (although she's never used it herself). Does that mean she's not a genuine Catholic? No, it means she's got some critical faculties. Perosnally I can't reconcile those kind of issues with being a practiing member of the faith, but many people can & do.

takeiteasy
at Mass you have to profess your Faith, have to say out loud 'We believe in one God,
NOPE
You just need to mumble something and not look at your phone too blatantly

go to a naice wedding at a pretty village church and watch the mumblers out numbering the speakers ten to one

I agree calamitously that it is unfair and they should change the system to make it more level. But my kids education is the one area where I am going to take advantage of anything I can to get them the best. I know that is selfish, but as I have said, they have one shot.

I consider large numbers of not very good parents to be a much bigger problem for society than faith schools and parents faking religion.

Of course, always mis directed anger.

I thought one of the main ways you know you are in a Catholic Church is the mumbling!

It means that the children whose parents have none of these are always the ones who lose out - and they're the children who most need a break in life. What we need is a system that the already better off (and I include myself in this) can't rig to their own advantage at all times

I dont think the children of the better off or the parents should suffer because of the government failure to make all schools excellent.

The Catholic Church aren't actually worried about whether the parents believe. They teach the children all about the Catholic faith and that's good enough for them

To everyone who has said - "this isn't right but I know why they do it" - join the fair admissions campaign
fairadmissions.org.uk/
This is a campaign to stop religion being a criterion for admissions. Schools can still have a faith ethos and faith money / land, but should NOT discriminate on the basis of religious attendance. That should solve the problem of non-believers attending church pretty fast.

It is possible to get political change on this issue if enough people want it.

Ok Parietal, so parents cant get their children into the good school, what then?

why not bring other schools up first?

In my own personal opinion Yanbu... I am non religious and would not attend church just to secure a school place for my child as I believe it is hypocritical... Similarly my son isn't christened and lots of people ask why not... '' oh our ds is christened but we don't attend church why don't you get your dc christened''

I will never stand in a church and vow to bring my child up in a Christian family when I know that isn't true!

Although I am non religious I do think it's lost a lot of its respect through people attending with other motives... Oh must go so I can get my child christened, into school, married (I really want to get married in this church coz its pretty attitude)

Lots of people I know are hypocrites... Going out and doing everything the Bible says not to then walking in on Sunday pretending they are religious. It really winds me up!

Yes, surely there are not that many catholic schools about for taking religion out of the equation to make that much of a huge difference? And I don't know about anywhere else but round here CofE schools base their admissions largely on catchment area, with attendance at church being lower down the list of criterion (or is that more just village schools?).

There are still huge discrepancies between regular state schools (which in addition to Cof E schools which dont require attendance at church to get in, must form the majority of schools) and getting rid of religious schools isn't going to solve that because you will still have parents buying houses in 'better' areas etc etc.

I dont think the children of the better off or the parents should suffer because of the government

But I didn't say they should suffer. I said we shouldn't have a system that's always rigged in their favour. They simply won't be at an advantage. It's a completely different thing.

Or, in reality, they'll be at a slightly smaller advantage than they might have previously been.

ZeVite

It is very very hard to improve a poor school if there is strong social selection in the intake. If you reduce the social selection (by having fair admissions), then you will help to improve the school.

There will, of course, still be social selection by house-prices, but that is a different problem and I'm not sure anyone knows how to solve it.

TalkinPeace You have got to be shitting me about the money thing on the Order of Service?

Am at 'there was a page in the order of service listing how much was a good percentage of what salaries to donate'

Why have faith schools anyway? We live in a multicultural country. This should be represented in our education system. By all means follow a faith. But not within formal education.

So what happens once you've got the place? I'm Catholic. My kids go to a Catholic school. There are prayers 3-4 times daily, and weekly school mass which parents and local parishioners attend if they are available. Obviously Sunday mass too, and holy days of obligation, in addition to your own bible & prayer stuff at home with the kids. The faith is a big part of being a child at this school. And that is what I signed up for.

I do find it sad when whole swathes of non-working parents leave school immediately after the school run instead of coming in to enjoy the pleasure of collective worship at school mass. It is fab and lovely in our warm, caring community. But that's their choice. I do, however,
object to non-Catholic parents complaining in the playground about "all this God stuff" (one small example). It's almost as if once they're "in" the gloves are off and they can mock it all. I'm all for differing opinions, and open debate, but when your starting point seems to be quite anti-Catholic (or anti-Christian in some instances), there's no point. Why sign up for it if you dislike it so much?

Presumably none of the people who fake religion ever have conversations with their children? I think mine were about 5 when they first asked me whether I believed in God.......

Religion should have no bearing on a school application, unless a school funds itself entirely

Play the system, it's flawed and unfair so cheat it.

"So what happens once you've got the place? I'm Catholic. My kids go to a Catholic school. There are prayers 3-4 times daily, and weekly school mass which parents and local parishioners attend if they are available. Obviously Sunday mass too, and holy days of obligation, in addition to your own bible & prayer stuff at home with the kids. The faith is a big part of being a child at this school. And that is what I signed up for."

Can I ask why you think I should be paying for a catholic education for your children?