to think that you shouldn't fake religion to get a school place?

[Carrierpenguin]

A friend of mine became catholic when she married her husband, then they split up. She hadnt been religious beforehand, but now she's chosen to go to church every week for the last year in order to get her ds into the local catholic school. She's told me that she doesn't believe in all that 'mumbo jumbo' but the church school gets the best results locally. I understand that everyone wants the best for their children, but this seems a bit disingenuous.

I suppose it's open to all - if you're willing to fake religion you can get into the best school, I suspect that the good results are due to parental influence as you have to be very keen to commit to two years of Sundays at church, presumably this filters out parents who don't care about education, whereas the secular schools cater to all.

I'm not against faith schools or the system, if it gets great results then why not I suppose? Aibu to think faking religion is not ethical though?

What happens when the child has a place at the school, do the parents stop going to church?

Yanbu....

Can't stand the overnight catholic grabber brigade....

I don't know for certain, but that's probably very true Hakluyt.

But it really isn't that much for a parent to ask that their children go to school with children whose parents have similar values and a similar attitude to education and discipline. It makes all the difference to a school, and I really don't think it's fair to imply parents are in the wrong for doing something that's perfectly legal and transparent just so that they can provide the best they possibly can for their children. (Didn't mean you are Hak, that point is just general)

YABU, if the alternative was a poorer educational experience for my child, I'd do the same.

fluffy
Yes
I was at a church last month in a seriously "pay or pray" area
and even the order of service tacitly admitted that the families all vanish as soon as the youngest is in school

I know that I am going to sound ridiculously poncy. But I think educwtion is a very broad concept. And one of the things I would be unhappy about teaching my children is that it's OK to pretend to be a Christian in order to get into a school. You would have either to pretend to your child that you were a churchgoer- or tell your child you weren't, but not to tell anyone. How is that OK?

What do you think makes a school "bad"?

A "bad" school
Does not differentiate learning.
Does not pull the low ability and push the high ability.
Does not include - both culturally and to the wider environs
Does not broaden - academic results are not the only measures of true success
Does not take a coherent view of the learning of the pupils - often due to discord within the SLT

"You would have either to pretend to your child that you were a churchgoer- or tell your child you weren't, but not to tell anyone."

No, you wouldn't. The requirement (at many C of E schools, anyway) is simply that you attend church. There's no faith requirement. If you go to church then you are a churchgoer, no pretending required.

It does get more difficult if there's also a baptism requirement, as some kind of vague statement of faith is required -- but even then if you aren't a definite atheist you can probably sign up to the relevant promises, which are fairly wooly.

Having read many of these threads now I understand why people do it, although I wouldn't myself.
We don't have any of the problems here that others seem to have with faith schools.
They aren't necessarily better than community schools and they are mostly except for one, undersubscribed.
2 of our dc went to various church schools including Catholic, CofE both primary and secondary.
I think its sad that people feel they have to lie to attend a school,

You don't have to lie. If you attend church you are a churchgoer. There isn't a tick box that says 'Do you believe in God?'.

despite being atheists, we held Christian values

LaChatte, what do you mean by "Christian values"?

Maybe the question is not so much"Would you lie to your children", but "What would you say to your children if they asked why they had to go to church every week when they didn't used to?"

I/We went to a church we wouldn't otherwise have gone to throughout the DC's primary years in order to get them into a good faith secondary.
Reassuring to read here that not many feel we were wrong in this course of action
Posting to say that I didn't find it required being dishonest to the DC though - I answered any questions of theirs honestly.
But not something that's without it's challenges - it can upset your own sense of integrity I think, and perhaps affect your relationship with others

I was brought up Catholic and forcibly dragged to attended Mass every Sunday until I was 18. Now I might go at Christmas (not always) to keep my mum company and sing a few carols and otherwise hatches, matches & dispatches. DH is not Catholic (not christened at all, though family is nominally Anglican) but we got married in a Catholic church (basically laziness on my part from not being bothered dealing with my family about it and the fact that it provided a pretty chapel )

We are expecting our first child and intend to get him christened almost purely so he will be able to attend one of the good Catholic schools near us (and to shut my mum up). DH is totally in favour. We're not in zone for any good state schools. I don't believe in most Catholic doctrine and certainly none of its social teachings (around women, homosexuality, contraception etc) and I'll certainly make sure my kids understand my views. I spent most of my RE classes at Catholic school in the mid 90s arguing with my teachers and to be fair they were generally a pretty tolerant lot. In that sense I think Catholic schools offer a good education - it gives you something to push back against & it's a highly effective innoculation again religion! Certainly none of my friends from school have ended up happy clappers! Yes I'm a hypocrite for sending my kids to school in a religion I don't agree with but no more hypocritical than any one else who nods along in church while personally using contraception r whatever (i.e. everyone). It does suck that us left footers have this advantage over others in terms of access to these taxpayer funded schools, but then I think they didn't spend every bloody Sunday and all of Easter long weekend dying of boredom during interminable Masses & confessions so maybe there's some justice after all.

If I was asked by my kids why they attended church/were sent to a RC school I would tell them they were baptised because Mum/Mum's family is Catholic, so we wanted to give them the option; and there were good things about it (which I do believe, on the social justice/activism side of things) but there were negatives too and that the church was wrong on some things and tell them what they were. No lying required.

Of course it's unethical.

Around here it's the norm.

School places are short, and last time I checked 70% of primary schools in the borough had some kind of faith based criteria.

It's not a matter of getting them into the "right" school, or even a better one. It's a matter of getting your child into a school that is a reasonable distance from where you live.

I personally think the system is totally out of line. The people completely the wrong religion can't really get away with faking it and of course may not want to. It's one thing for a cultural Christian to rock up to church not so much for a Hindu IYSWIM. Having said that we have Greek Orthodox and Jewish people at church but you need a certain level of chutzpah to do that IMO! We also have a number of Jewish schools with faith based criteria as well so it's not just non Christians who may end up on the wrong side of all of this.

Whole system utterly stinks IMO and of course is highly discriminatory.

Don't understand the lying thing. You need to start taking them from age zero - 2 max to stand a chance so they are not going to have any memory of not going to church.

Also not sure that people tend to quiz small children on their religious adherence IYSWIM.

The schools & churches don't mind as they get bums on seats, money in the collections, highly motivated parents at the school, babies through the baptisms and of course the get the religion at school so even if the parent isn't religious that's a child they've got the chance of getting on board with it all and etc. The schools and churches know full well it happens they could stop it if they wanted but they don't as it's in their interests.

In over subscribed areas like here religious schools have well under average FSM etc and up until recently many were doing all sorts of highly illegal things with admissions to get the "right sort" in.

Like I say whole thing stinks IMO.

I appreciate this is something which varies wildly around the country though, our area is quite extreme with it all.

What's the lie Hakluyt?

The rule is "you must attend church 3 times a month", the family does what they have to. No one needs to lie.

I agree with those who've said that hand-wringing over the deception is missing the point. Having ever more stringent checks on it doesn't solve the basic problem.

We shouldn't have a system where people feel they need to fake religious belief in order to get their child into a halfway decent school. I really think all state schools should be open to all children, and we shouldn't be introducing religious (or any other) entry requirements.

Hak
TBH the church I was in, it was not really hidden at all that people were praying to save from paying
the vicars VERY bad temper showed that he knew he was merely an interlude to a new level on bejewelled when the folks knelt in the pews

there was a page in the order of service listing how much was a good percentage of what salaries to donate (it went up to the £150-£200k band)

There are lots of things you shouldn't have to do. Then there's real life and your child's one shot at an education. I find people who complain about faith school parents 'faking it' mostly wish they'd thought of it first.

Is lying wrong? If you believe it is, then yes it is unethical.

And it IS lying - at Mass you have to profess your Faith, have to say out loud 'We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all that is, seen and unseen.' and so on - if you don't believe, then you're lying. And you are also depriving a genuine, believing, Catholic of a place