To think this is intrusive and creepy?

[kiritekanawa]

I commute about two hours a day on suburban trains in Paris. It's quite creepy and unsettling to watch the gender politics being played out every day.

Women sit with their bottom at the back of the seat, so their knees don't jut out, so they take up as little room as possible in a 4-seater bit where 2 people face 2 people (which is how most of the seats are arranged on these particular commuter trains).

Men, usually young men, frequently sit opposite women, slide their backside to the edge of the seat, spread their legs wide, and if sitting opposite a woman, put their feet either side of the woman's legs. Then they stare at the woman. If the woman gets up to get off the train, they often won't move their legs, so she has to clamber over them. It's deliberate intrusion. I very rarely see men so tall that their legs would stick out that much naturally if they actually sat up straight - and I know this, I have seen various extremely tall friends sit on these seats without intruding on the space opposite.

This is totally unnecessary, and really rude. Or, possibly, it is totally normal, and I am an uptight Engleesh bitch who needs a f*, as I was told this morning when I politely asked the man opposite me (young enough to be my son, incidentally) to sit up and not surround my legs with his legs, explaining that many women found it a bit too intrusive. Yuck.

re the ladylike point, there's a huge gulf between manners/ ladylike behaviour, and behaving decently and empathetically, with regard to your place in society.

i think that's actually a huge part of the problem - people who are obsessive about manners and appearance, are often totally unempathetic and not very socially insightful. French society seems generally to hold it close to their identity that both manners and outward appearance are very,very important - and at least in Paris, humilty about one's place in society, decency and empathy seem to be in very short supply. Having lived/worked in 9 countries in the last 20 years, to me, France is hte only country where this manners empathy axis is really noticeable at all.

Gosh, some of these encounters are truly terrifying. It really makes me sad.

I have encountered this type of behaviour in Italy. It's scary and infuriating. Any reaction you have is ridiculed and minimised. It's so fucking depressing.

Sit in to the space, with your legs crossed and your foot right in the middle that'll make the fucker uncomfortable!

Eugh. I loathed living in Paris; I upset many people by telling them that so I stopped eventually. Paris syndrome sounds about right, it's a dreadful place, or maybe it's the people. Love a lot of the rest of France though.

At the very least a strategically place heel on their foot wouldn't go a miss. They can fuck off of hey expect to be climbed over like they're own private mini lap dance on their way to work.

*if they

Christ.

*their

Sorry, I need to turn auto correct off.

Is 'Paris Syndrome' really a thing? The Wiki page for it looks like a spoof.

I was groped in Paris when I was 14 - walking along and a man suddenly grabbed my breast. I wasn't a particularly mature looking 14 year old either.

Ugh! I've worked in global companies and the French are usually the least liked. I can understand why.

I would have half a cup of coffee at the ready. The hotter the better...

A friend of mine did a postdoc in France and some of the things she told me were dreadful - including the department outing to a lap-dancing club. This was a university science department, for fuck's sake!

This is so very depressing to read - I can feel my blood pressure rising. I don't have a public transport commute at the moment, but have always really
hated this, but not spoken of it before.

LurcioAgain, it wouldn't totally surprise me if your friend and I worked in the same institution....

Summersover - god, you poor thing. Likewise, RedButtonhole, ErnestTheBavarian, and indeed everyone else with stories on here.

I haven't had anything physical, but have felt quite frightened a few times. The daily dose of intrusive, dominant body language is quite sensitizing, but people are often very threatening as well. Have met lots of creeps who walk beside you and comment, which is frightening if noone else is around. I told an RER staff member to stop smoking in a train carriage I was in (obviously, nonsmoking train), and he yelled sexually suggestive abuse at me, following me down the carriage, until I got off. Noone else did anything other than look at me as though it was all my fault.

incidentally - i've lived in London and commuted on the tube for 3 years. Night buses and nutters on very late tube journeys could be a bit scary, but I never really felt unsafe or had any sense of intrusion like I do here all the time.

I don't know if this is just a Paris thing... sat next to a man (smart, suit) today who had his legs spread wide and his phone resting on his crotch. I was 5 inches taller than him but obliged to sit primly so as not to encroach on his space! Are - should have said something.

Paris has been the worst though, generally speaking.

Ha. I never felt unsafe in paris, despite my above posts. The minute you raise your voice people do rally round.

In London no one ever came to help.

I feel far safer in Paris.

WOw, that really is very creepy. Much more so than the usual taking up tooo much space.

BOF thanks for the link - I had to stop after two pages because i didn't want to see any more crotches.

ismellon: "Ugh! I've worked in global companies and the French are usually the least liked. I can understand why."

Totally.

OK, it was 24 years ago, but I was gobsmacked to be in a queue for a burger van, and see the owner tell a black guy to go to the back of the queue because he was black.

No one I've told that story to in England believes me - unless they've been to Paris.

Don't want to derail the thread, but all cities are not equal.

I would put my Dm'd boot on their ankle with force. Whilst lookin em in the eye and saying harshly Move.

It combombulates me at times that men think we can't /won't say something.
I would be very very angsty Tbh.

I am French and I studied and worked in Paris, and I completely agree, the amount of sexual harassment and assault that I had to live with every day on public transport was astounding. The sad thing is that I didn't even realise it was that bad, I was so used to it. It's when I moved to London that it hit me, in London I felt free and safe, it was amazing. I never moved back

I believe you Lurkinghusband.
It's fucking shameful what you saw. But it's not unusual. Unfortunately.
I utterly hate and detest the rasisism happening in the UK atm

It's not just France. I read something relating to the London tube recently regarding this subject. I will try to find a link.

I was walking up a quiet side street in Paris WITH MY PARENTS ffs, I was about 21 and working for a French airline at the time. We were in jeans and jumpers - it was December and freezing. A guy appeared from nowhere behind me and started masturbating furiously and ejaculated all over my lower half.

It was the most humiliating experience and my parents were horrified. I left shortly after and still, 20 years on, I will not ever visit Paris again.