To think this is intrusive and creepy?

[kiritekanawa]

I commute about two hours a day on suburban trains in Paris. It's quite creepy and unsettling to watch the gender politics being played out every day.

Women sit with their bottom at the back of the seat, so their knees don't jut out, so they take up as little room as possible in a 4-seater bit where 2 people face 2 people (which is how most of the seats are arranged on these particular commuter trains).

Men, usually young men, frequently sit opposite women, slide their backside to the edge of the seat, spread their legs wide, and if sitting opposite a woman, put their feet either side of the woman's legs. Then they stare at the woman. If the woman gets up to get off the train, they often won't move their legs, so she has to clamber over them. It's deliberate intrusion. I very rarely see men so tall that their legs would stick out that much naturally if they actually sat up straight - and I know this, I have seen various extremely tall friends sit on these seats without intruding on the space opposite.

This is totally unnecessary, and really rude. Or, possibly, it is totally normal, and I am an uptight Engleesh bitch who needs a f*, as I was told this morning when I politely asked the man opposite me (young enough to be my son, incidentally) to sit up and not surround my legs with his legs, explaining that many women found it a bit too intrusive. Yuck.

[gatewalker]

Right. I am aware that I may sound absolutely crackers when I say this, but I'm willing to risk it :)

I have faced my share of men in this situation, and have managed to disarm this particular form of sexism in a matter of seconds -- so much so that one man sitting opposite me was reduced to a writhing mess and jumped off at the next stop. How? By working energetically with the particular shite that they're exuding. It works; it really does. But perhaps you have to believe it works before you see it for yourself. Bloody magic!

[GreenMouse]

Inkanta, in general there is much more sexism in France than in the UK, and complaints against it are not generally taken very seriously. It's a cultural thing, if you've grown up with it you just accept it. You might not like it but it's easier in general not to make a fuss.

On skirts, a French friend of mine noted during a visit to London, that the percentage of skirt-wearers was much higher than in Paris, and that the skirts tended to be much shorter in London. I did say to him that was probably due to the all the harassment that women have to face in Paris. I'm not suggesting that it's the wearing of skirts that causes the harassment, of course not, but you do try to protect yourself by covering up (not that it helps much).

Depressingly I've seen some reports that the wearing of a skirt or dress is taken by some French men as a sexual come-on.

[GreenMouse]

gatewalker tell us more! what do you mean by that?

[Poopooweewee]

I live in Central London and take the Central line every day in the rush hour. I have never encountered anything like this, despite the tubes being v overcrowded, I find that people generally behave politely.

I have never been harassed, eyed up by men, yes, but not harassed, in rush hour. Weekend or late night tube travel is a different story but I feel 100% safe during busy periods.

I was harassed by a v scary man years ago on a Saturday, I was with my mum, and NO ONE helped or intervened. Men lifted there newspapers as high as possible so that they could tell themselves nothing was happening. Pathetic. I'm a 5ft 5 woman and I would always help another woman in those circs, it's just instinctive.

[gatewalker]

GreenMouse -- I'll do my best to explain ...

I stand fully in my self. No shying back (physically, psychologically, emotionally). I have every right to take up space. First thing dealt with. Now I deal with the man who is impinging on that right, and I do that by 'pushing' my sense of myself as full, empowered, with a right to be there, with my anger (which I use constructively rather than destructively) outwards until it reaches the point where his presence is fucking with mine. And I hold it there; no compromise.

When I first realised that I could do this and anyone can I watched the man wide-legged, aggressive start looking uneasy. Then he started sweating, wiping his hands over his face. Then he started crossing his legs -- not knowing quite what to do with them, or with himself. About two minutes in, he was squirming and sweating. This wasn't an attack on my part; I was simply reflecting his aggression back on to him. He left the Tube at the next stop, and all was well. I did this on Tuesday as well, with a man who was about to make a physical advance on me. He ended up removing his hand from the bar I was holding, and turned fully away from me, and remained that way until his stop.

It does work. I promise.

[Popsandpip]

It's really disappointing, isn't it OP?

[busyboysmum]

All the male replies to that blog seem to say that it is uncomfortable for men to sit with their legs together because it squashes their testicles. On that point it does seem to be a difference in biology perhaps? I'm not defending any of the pervy behaviour but they do seem to sit like that anyway.

[GreenMouse]

So gatewalker, it's mostly an attitude thing? I mean, you don't actually physically push against them, it's more a psychological pushing if I understand correctly?

[GreenMouse]

Yeah but boysmum there is a difference between not sitting with your legs together because it's uncomfortable, and sitting with your legs so far apart that you are encroaching on another person's space.

[gatewalker]

Yes, GreenMouse. No touching at all. You can call it a psychological push ... I tend to call it an energetic one, because it has such a palpable feel and effect to it.

[gatewalker]

Agreed, GreenMouse there's a difference between sitting with your legs open and doing this particular thing that the OP writes about. Hence "energetic" you can quite literally feel the impact of what they are doing on you. Personally, it gives me the heebs and the rage.

[OpalQuartz]

My sister had a French teenage boy come to stay with us for a school French exchange. He told her that back home him and his friends would travel on the train and when they spotted a young girl getting off they would get off too and follow her and intimidate her for a laugh. She didn't go back to stay with him.

[Bambambini]

Gatewalker - can you explain better what you do? I'm really interested. Now I'm older and never really use public transport I don't really see it.

[Suzannewithaplan]

blimey Gatewalker, I'll be trying ?that technique next time a bloke tries to get in my space!?

[gatewalker]

Bambambini -- Did you see my second post, where I explain it? Just checking in case you didn't. If you did, and you want me to explain more, let me know. What feels unclear so I know what to focus on?

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

This testicle squashing business; it makes you wonder how they ever manage to fly on airplanes.

[DiaDuit]

Gatewalker do you mean you basically mirror the man's behavior and body language? Do you make eye contact?

[Teladi]

On the packed metro as a 15 year old exchange student, standing in the aisle, a man got on behind me and rubbed himself energetically against my bottom. I didn't know what to do, I was frightened, my host family were there but they kept getting annoyed with me when I spoke English anyway so I just didn't say anything. I've never forgotten it and I felt so helpless in that moment.

I lived in London after that in my twenties and often on the overground train there would be guys sitting like they have giant balls so you'd be falling out into the aisle. I hated it.

[gatewalker]

DiaDuit - No, it's not mirroring. Hard to explain ... it is rather reflecting his energy back to him, but not by mirroring his body language or behaviour. That would just be two aggressive people posturing on the Tube :)

I am present. Calm. Centred. And I will not take any of his shit. All this is enacted, bodily. Body is more important than mind ... In fact, mind doesn't come into it.

[gatewalker]

No, I don't necessarily need to make eye contact either. It's a way of being rather than doing.

[Bambambini]

I didn't realise France was so bad at all. Had terrible harassment travelling round Turkey and to a lesser extent Israel - but that was more to be expected.

[DiaDuit]

Gatewalker we need you to do a video tutorial!

[gatewalker]

Well, I'm actually up for that, DiaDuit! :)

If anyone is interested, let me know via PM.

[ladeedad]

I would say "excusez moi" and kick them if they wouldn't move.

[Greengrow]

My natural sitting position all day long at my desk is my left leg right up on my thigh in a sort of half lotus position. On planes I have particular problems due to lack of space. I think my legs and posture are utterly different from that of most women.

On London tubes I always have a mass wheelie bag and I am usually reading the FT so woe betide any man near me who takes up space. He does not last long doing so.

I find very little harassment by men on the London underground compared to many places abroad even though there are I think 400,000 French people in London now escaping Hollande's taxes. I don't think women should put up with lack of room. Spread your own legs. I have never understood how all these other women seem to be able to sit in a position of thighs right together and it's not my weight. I've rarely been over 10 stone all my life - it is just my legs go out when I sit not straight together. I always feel I am the natural normal one and all those other women are pushing their legs together like some kind of prim Victorian lady, more fool them.