To think this is intrusive and creepy?

[kiritekanawa]

I commute about two hours a day on suburban trains in Paris. It's quite creepy and unsettling to watch the gender politics being played out every day.

Women sit with their bottom at the back of the seat, so their knees don't jut out, so they take up as little room as possible in a 4-seater bit where 2 people face 2 people (which is how most of the seats are arranged on these particular commuter trains).

Men, usually young men, frequently sit opposite women, slide their backside to the edge of the seat, spread their legs wide, and if sitting opposite a woman, put their feet either side of the woman's legs. Then they stare at the woman. If the woman gets up to get off the train, they often won't move their legs, so she has to clamber over them. It's deliberate intrusion. I very rarely see men so tall that their legs would stick out that much naturally if they actually sat up straight - and I know this, I have seen various extremely tall friends sit on these seats without intruding on the space opposite.

This is totally unnecessary, and really rude. Or, possibly, it is totally normal, and I am an uptight Engleesh bitch who needs a f*, as I was told this morning when I politely asked the man opposite me (young enough to be my son, incidentally) to sit up and not surround my legs with his legs, explaining that many women found it a bit too intrusive. Yuck.

[Justwhateverreally]

My first trip abroad alone was Paris when I was 20. I was shocked at the amount of street harassment I got. Hated the place. Have been back since but never liked it. kinda glad to hear that it isn't just me who's had this experience, so many people talk about how amazing Paris is, I felt like a weirdo for not liking it!

And no, I've never experienced anything like it in the UK. The only other places where I've encountered hassle are Italy, Marrakesh and Havana.

[DiaDuit]

Well this thread is a real eye opener wrt french culture. I have never been to france but i have also never heard of this high level of sexual harrassment. It is good to know if i ever go there.

[Inkanta]

I am trying to imagine what it might feel like to have testicles - like 2 small balloons between my legs. I don't think I'd like it. Do they get sweaty and cumbersome?

[DiaDuit]

Well i have a set of balloons between my arms much larger than any groin balloons ive ever encountered and i manage not to sit with my arms spread wide on public transport.

Men manage to drive formula 1 cars with very little room for their legs to spread. It doesnt seem to put them at a disadvantage to women in that sport

[GreenMouse]

Good points Dia, even in a normal car I don't think you can drive with your knees spread wide open!

[Stillyummy]

Don't worrie ladies, it happens in London too! I once had a man try to take a picture up my skirt! Another man used the charming line "are you ovulating? As you seem very smily and friendly". Now I where a scowl and huge figure hiding coat on the train. X

[Inkanta]

Hey don't get me wrong I'n no supporter of spread eagled legs on a train - that would really trigger my righteous anger.

With all the talk about testicles I wondered (out loud) what they feel like. I had always assumed that when legs are closed they rested at front of legs - not squashed in between legs.

[FrenchJunebug]

Paris is nor la haine nor Amelie! Seriously!

[FrenchJunebug]

and one incident doesn't represent the whole of France. The thread reads like a daily mail column.

[FyreFly]

Justwhatever my first trip abroad alone was to Paris, and I've honestly never had a problem. I've been back many times on my own. However I do also have one hell of a resting bitch face, which may be responsible!

[PetiteRaleuse]

I still say I only ever very rarely felt in actual danger in Paris, and none of that was from random perves. This despite regularly travelling on the RER to rough areas, living in some dodgy areas both in Paris and the suburbs. I remember it as being a very safe city.

London otoh was horrible for personal safety. Maybe I was unlucky but in two years there I was mugged or someone attempted to mug me three times, a knife was pulled on me once, and there were many times I was terrified by people who made me feel unsafe by following me, or being generally threatening.
Comparatively I felt far safer in Paris, despite the sexual harassment.

[GreenMouse]

Junebug RTFT, it's not about one incident.

PetiteRaleuse that's interesting, I've always felt much safer in London than in Paris, but I have to say nobody has every tried to mug me.

[coffeewithchips]

On a trip to Paris with my sister recently, we were surrounded by some very aggressive men outside the Sacre Coeur. Obviously using their size to intimidate us and block us passing.

I carried on walking and one of them grabbed my arm and tried to pull me back. I shoved him off and carried on, only to be confronted by his friend who was right in my face saying 'hey baby. Where you from?'

This made me see red (how dare they touch me and invade my space like that) so I put my middle finger up at him and pushed him away.

As I walked away I got the foulest tirade of abuse ever unleashed on me. 'Fuck you/ fuck your mother/ stupid bitch' etc. so glad I no longer live in France. I've never been treated that way in the UK.

[limitedperiodonly]

I find the posts saying: 'I'd tread on them with my stilettos or kick them in the nuts or pour hot coffee' naive and insulting.

Would you really have the perspicacity or the bravery to do that?

Confronting people like this isn't only a big deal, it's potentially dangerous. I don't blame women for backing down

I've been threatened only once by a man on a London tube. It was the early evening and he was chatting me up - except it obviously wasn't friendly or reciprocated.

It was totally obvious to many people around and no one did anything.

He then followed out on the escalators and no one there did a thing either. What saved me was that my friend was waiting for me at the station head and shouted at him to fuck off. It probably helped that she's bigger than me and him.

I'm not a wimp. It was about 7pm in a crowded place but he terrified me.

I also don't understand the poster who uses her zen presence to intimidate perverts.

How does that work? Really?

[chaya5738]

I haven't read the whole thread yet but presume you have seen this:

takebackthemetro.com/

[GreenMouse]

Chaya, thanks for that, I hadn't heard of it, but I am not surprised to see that it's the brainchild of Osez le Feminisme.

It's good to see that something is finally being done about the situation!

[kiritekanawa]

PetiteRaleuse - part of the persepctive on feeling safer or not may be to do with how fluent one is in the local language and how immersed one is in the culture generally. it sounds like you had some really crappy experiences both in Paris and in London (for which, my sympathies).

In London I met some oddballs but felt relatively safe because I could more or less predict what they were going to do next, and I could more or less predict what others around me were thinking.

In Paris I find it much harder to predict outcomes of situations, and thus feel much less safe. It's partly because it's an unfamiliar culture and my french is fluent enough to quickly get me into situations but not necessarily get me out of them, and partly because I work with people who behave unreasonably and unpredictably so I am on public transport after spending 12 hours being sensitized to having apparently uncontroversial things turn into sessions of screaming abuse.

However, it's partly also because the social emphasis is so extremely different from what I'm used to: there's this huge "vive la difference" gulf between men and women; appearance (as opposed to body language or actions) seems to mean so much more; empathy to strangers appears not to be a concept whereas treating them like some "other" defined by a single concept (black, woman, whatever) appears to be how it is done... etc. The "strangers as other" is probably just a big city thing generally, but when mixed with attitudes to gender that I find unsettling, because in previous places i've lived those attitudes to gender are really not mainstream and are held by predatory people, it all makes me feel vulnerable.

[kiritekanawa]

chaya5738, thanks, this is great

For those unfamiliar with the signs, these are very close to actual signs on the metro/RER (much like that set of fake London Underground signs doing the rounds of the internet), but with a specific emphasis.

[kiritekanawa]

limitedperiodonly - TBH I think you're right about the hot coffee, stilettos etc. And i have ASD, hate crowds, and thus spend more of my time with my face to the wall of the RER trying not to have a panic attack than using the force of my (nonexistent) personality to face down sexist prats.

Still, one has to have confrontations, and some of them are small and nonintimidating enough that you can win, slightly. I did manage to tread on someone's foot "accidentally" yesterday when he was trying to force me to clamber over his legs, and when he started swearing at me in French, I swore back at him in English and told him to move and stop being a sexist w*nker. And then I stared down the middle-aged women who were staring at me as though I'd broken some massive social taboo.

[PetiteRaleuse]

Attitudes to women here are changing, but it is very slow. I have seen improvement over the past 16 years I have been living here.

In your situation I would stand up before you actually need to and ask them loudly (not shouting) but politely to move their legs so you can pass. Showing you are not intimidated. Maybe even smiling and making a joke about it. More disdain if you think it is deliberately agressive behaviour.

I don't think Parisian women are meek as someone said above. They are reaigned to it happening but they can be pretty withering to men who piss them off on public transport.

[kiritekanawa]

Yep - I do stand up before I need to, and had on this occasion - bloke was staring at me, smirking. I'd stood up as the train was leaving the previous station, said "excuse me" and "excuse me, I'm trying to get off the train" already, and he sat there and smirked/stared me up and down a bit more.

I'm crap at being withering. Always too scared/shaken by situations to do anything but swear in English...

[TheMaddHugger]

You dont have to be 'aggressive'

with my wonky balance all you have to do is put your foot down quickly for balance ;)

Also, the odd vomit signs and sounds as in Im about to vomit, get out of the way. is another quick escape

Yes, I have done these.

[QuintsBombWithAWiew]

You need to spill strong lemon and ginger tea - yellow colour and pungent smell.

[usmama]

gatewalker I'd be really interested to hear more about how you do it, I'm not sure I fully understand

Otherwise pretty shocked by this thread, and also am realising that I probably don't notice these incidents half the time they happen, because I'm used to it