....to ask what you think of white poppies (Remembrance-related)?

[PlumpingUpPartridge]

I had been dimly aware of the existence of white poppies but hadn't really given them much thought until DH mentioned them this weekend. I checked out the website and saw this:

linky

I liked this quote:

"In 1933 the first white poppies appeared on Armistice Day (called Remembrance Day after World War Two). The white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the white poppy supporters lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers - but a challenge to the continuing drive to war. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union began widespread distribution of the poppies and their annual promotion."

I am very happy to express my admiration and respect for those who died in wars, but I don't particularly want to see any more wars. I don't know what the alternative is, but I'd like to see more effort go into finding it.

I've been sifting through the threads and noticed some anti-white poppy feeling (along the lines of 'it's disrespectful'). I didn't grow up here so don't have childhood experience to guide me on this. Please can you tell me what you think of it and, if you think it's disrespectful, why?

I'm not a journalist by the way, just curious and trying to be impartial

I refuse to support the British Legion. If the state wishes to go to war, then they must ensure there is funding available to support the consequences of that decision, and I will not contribute voluntarily beyond the money I choose to donate to charities who support all people with disabilities regardless of their military status.

However, I choose not to forget either, and the white poppy acts as a positive symbol of remembrance without the militaristic overtones. So I will wear my homemade white poppy and donate to MSF - picking up the pieces of war across the globe.

I think the white poppy fills a niche - it's an option for those who aren't convinced by the need for a military establishment but who respect the sacrifices made by those who died in war.

Moving onto anecdote, my DH gets very antsy when watching anything remotely military in theme on TV (like the Remembrance Day parades) because he feels that it is painting a noble, brave face on something that would be more accurately described as bloody horrific. There is a subset of people who feel that the traditional expressions of remembrance (red poppies, wreath-laying, impressive uniforms and solemn marching) keep us in that mindset where we accept war as an inevitable part of life. It is inevitable, but doesn't need to occur quite so frequently I think.

This is from the Peace Pledge Union site:

"Through the white poppy our aim is primarily to raise issues. We distribute the white poppies each year to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable. Any money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the white poppies goes to fund our education work, some of which can be seen on our main website. Such work regrettably does not attract much funding and so we rely heavily on the generosity of people like you. Donations can be made here or if you are a UK Taxpayer you can add value to your contributions to peace education work through our associated charity the Peace Research and Education Trust . We are sure they will welcome your support.

PS Every year there is always someone, often in the media, who implies that money raised is used for some suspect activity; others categorically insists that the white poppies are 'taking money from the valuable work the British Legion is doing' and we get a lot of intemperate emails.
If you happen to hold this view why not check with the British Legion whether this is true before complaining to us.

You may also like to know that the Peace Pledge Union's annual turnover is similar to the annual salary (£95,000+) of the British Legion's chief executive."

It is precisely because the RBL support anybody with a military link that I would never donate to them.

Well without a 'military establishment' if may be you, or your husband, or your children that are called on to fight - just as they were in WW1 and WW2. Without a 'military establishment' we would go back to the days of National Service and conscription. I am glad we have a military to be proud of, just in case.

I don't dispute the need for a military and the work they all do. I just wish there was a poppy equivalent that honoured ALL war victims. Not just those from our own country. That's why I don't wear a red poppy.

EveDallas, I am aware that you have a military background and I don't want to offend you. I'm actually not very informed on modern military deployment so it would be appreciated if you felt like summarising why the military is still needed and necessary in these (apparently) modern times.

My main worry is that if we have a standing military then we will deploy them in the first instance, rather than seeking to exhaust all alternatives before doing so.

I wear a red poppy a) to donate to the British Legion (because the government doesn't fund everything) and b) as a tribute to all those who fought, without whom I would not exist because my parents would have been gassed as children.

if you don't want to wear a poppy, that's fine - that is a freedom. But all those who won't donate to any military cause (which is also fine) may want to think about how they got that freedom. And to remind them that the threat has not gone away.

I do not see anything on the PPU site that strikes me as in any way useful to promote peace. For instance, campaigns against religious hatred and brainwashing, funding for education in war-torn countries so the hatreds don't continue etc etc etc (there are doubtless plenty of better ideas)

these are obviously big problems and there's no easy solution.

I'm proud to wear a red poppy. I wouldn't consider wearing a white poppy and view them as political statements against the military/government.

I think it was Orwell that said "people sleep in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf".

It always pops up at this time of year - people objecting to even having a military and using white poppies. The poppy symbolises remembrance for those who made huge sacrifices for us as a people. Now we can argue about foreign expeditions but the people who died in the last world war were doing so precisely so that you today can sleep soundly in your bed tonight. presumably glowing with smug self satisfaction about eschewing a quid in a tin for a poppy. For my mind the RBL is something of which we should be proud - the politicians of what ever hue send them and inevitably don't come back or come back scarred for life in some way.

And for those that criticise Haig need to do their reading on the matter. He was by no means the butcher many think and personally set up the charity which became the poppy appeal.

I wear a purple poppy for the animals because they had no choice about any of it . And yes, I have to explain it to every other person. The sale of them goes to funding non-animal experiments and to care for rescued animals who have already been subjected to such torture.

White poppies (to me) signify snugness, naivety and disrespect. I'm quite left in my politics bit loathe loathe loathe the silly white poppies. Armistice day isn't a time to make a passive aggressive comment about war. (and they'd do well to remember that they're speaking English not German because of the thousands who gave their lives bravely)

That extract from the peace pledge website has made me dislike them even more.

I completely disagree that red poppies keep us in the mindset where war is inevitable, I think it does the opposite! It reminds us of the horror of war, and reminds us why we never want to go back to times like that. I think it's important for us to remember this every year, and to pass it on to our children, which poppies and Remembrance Day help us to do very effectively.

*So a fair few think that this is the wrong time to make the point. When would be a more appropriate time? Serious question.

It's unfortunate when expressing your actual view becomes a political statement but I'm not sure how to resolve that.*

any day but that day.

Red poppies are not pro-war. They remember a war that was terrible and the death toll was horrific. I think most people accept that war is terrible and that anything possible should be done to avoid it. I don't think you need a special poppy for that. Remembrance day is not a day that celebrates war, it is a day we remember that there once was a war so terrible that we are remembering those who were alive in wartime and had to suffer in a way we are to lucky to ever imagine.

Nobody wanted the war and nobody wants war now.

Being against war doesn't make you any more of a pacifist than a red poppy wearer and I find it a bit disrespectful to the dead soldiers and civilians to wear a white poppy as if the wearer is more "against war" than a red poppy wearer.

It's a bit like saying "I'm sorry you died but I think war is wrong"- As if they wanted to die in a war! as if they had loads of other choices, as if they had any say or clout or power to stop it.

I used to wear a red poppy but became disgusted at how it and Remembrance Sunday have been hijacked to glorify and justify modern conflicts. I didn't wear one at all for years but I felt uncomfortable that all the family members I lost in WW1 and also WW2 were not being commemorated by me because of the actions of others.

I wear a white poppy so that I can honour the sacrifice they made while not condoning war or the commercialisation of Remembrance Day.

I wouldn't judge anyone for wearing a red poppy, everyone has different experiences, but the soldiers in my family died for peace, not for war, so continuing to hope for peace is the most respectful way I can remember them. I am quite upset that anyone thinks my personal choice is something they have a right to attack me for.

Agree with all those who say white poppy wearers are smug and sanctimonious.

The red poppy is a symbol of rememberence, red poppy wearers want peace as well, or do the White poppy wearers think we are all gunning for blood?

I find it hugely infuriating when peor say "I don't agree with war", well I'm sure you'd agree with it if the UK was about to be invaded and you were about to be taken off to a concentration camp a la Hitler .

FWIW I know a lot of serving forces members and every single one I've spoken to about this finds the White poppy absolutely abhorrent.

Wearing a white poppy is a very selfish "look at me" political statement, at a time when people should be showing some fucking respect for the people who died making sure you could live the life you do today.

There's quite a bit of testimony upthread about veterans who themselves wore white poppies.

There's quite a bit of testimony upthread about veterans who themselves wore white poppies.

There may well be, but I'm afraid they're in the great minority,

but the soldiers in my family died for peace, not for war I think all soldiers wanted peace. I think everybody does.

The man or woman who is lying in a bed at Headley Court having lost a limb or multiple limbs, their sight, their mental health or any other disability you care to name certainly isn't glorifying or justifying conflicts modern or old. They and their families just want the funding to enable them to regain some semblance of their old lives. You're not doing anything but withholding aid from them by refusing to wear a poppy or wearing ridiculous white ones. IMO you're quite simply saying I don't give a shit about you. The red poppy is entirely separate from YOUR views. Wear one don't wear one but don't frame it as a moral choice you're making and a protest against war and just make sure you put some cash in those boxes because that's what it's all about, respecting and aiding the aftermath NOT the conflict itself.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/never-again-antiwar-veterans-to-carry-whitepoppy-wreath-to-cenotaph-9833246.html

Good library of articles that explain issues of poppies far more eloquently than I can.
noglory.org

Indeed Fluffy. A white poppy tells me I will have absolutely nothing to say to that person.

I don't know a single soldier that doesnt hope for peace. It's pretty daft to suggest that soldiers 'want' or 'glorify' war. They don't. They do as they are told, go to places they don't want to go to, and hope to bring peace and understanding there...and we do. No, we don't always achieve what we wanted, but we have gone a long way to do so. No-one joins up hoping to go to war, we just accept that we pledged an oath to do so if needed.

OP, if you AS me under my old name (LtEveDallas) and add the words Bosnia or Iraq you will find a long thread where I explained some of the work I was personally involved in, in Iraq and Bosnia. I am still proud of what I helped to achieve whilst there, and still in contact with the people I met and helped there. That may help with your question.

Don't tell me what to do and what to respect, Fluffy.

I wear my white poppy, as does my husband and child, with as much 'pride' as you do. I dare say you'd say fuck all to my face about it or anyone else's for that matter, sanctimonious indeed.