....to ask what you think of white poppies (Remembrance-related)?

[PlumpingUpPartridge]

I had been dimly aware of the existence of white poppies but hadn't really given them much thought until DH mentioned them this weekend. I checked out the website and saw this:

linky

I liked this quote:

"In 1933 the first white poppies appeared on Armistice Day (called Remembrance Day after World War Two). The white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the white poppy supporters lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers - but a challenge to the continuing drive to war. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union began widespread distribution of the poppies and their annual promotion."

I am very happy to express my admiration and respect for those who died in wars, but I don't particularly want to see any more wars. I don't know what the alternative is, but I'd like to see more effort go into finding it.

I've been sifting through the threads and noticed some anti-white poppy feeling (along the lines of 'it's disrespectful'). I didn't grow up here so don't have childhood experience to guide me on this. Please can you tell me what you think of it and, if you think it's disrespectful, why?

I'm not a journalist by the way, just curious and trying to be impartial

No it doesn't. The poppy appeal raises money to support the elderly veterans and those who are in need. No money from the poppy goes in to promoting war but it does provide help and support to those in need.

Services provided by the RBL:

Scooters
Home adaptations
Debt support
Housing
Retraining
Financial support to attend job interviews/combat stress
Handy men
Befriending service
Housing support
Food
Support for those suffering D & V
Support to claim benefits (PIP)
Support to make injury claims against the MOD.
Financial input for rehab (Battle back)

Nowhere in that list does it say the RBL support war.

'Why would you not support the military. I don't mean in a flag waving, yee haw American kind of way.'

It seems to have become quite flag waving. While we were involved in an illegal war.

HackMum: Brilliant - thank you.

RedPoppyRed
From the RBL website: '[the poppy] is worn to commemorate the sacrifices of the Armed Forces and to show support to those still serving today and their loved ones.'

There has always been flag waving during wars from certain sections of society, that doesn't mean the people for whom the flags are being waved feel that way. In fact, they don't, they hate the false support and jingoism, mostly because it usually comes accompanied by a very sanitised, romantic view of war.

You do have the capacity to divorce the politicians from the service people don't you?

Wear what the fuck colour poppy you like, or not. Men, women and children died so you can argue the toss.

Yes but the support we provide is not in the "we support war sense" What the RBL support is the people and the families.

True Saskia.

Do you work for the RBL?

No it doesn't. The poppy appeal raises money to support the elderly veterans and those who are in need. No money from the poppy goes in to promoting war but it does provide help and support to those in need.

They may not directly financially promote war but they say on their website "It is worn to commemorate the sacrifices of our Armed Forces and to show support to those still serving today and their loved ones."

So they support those serving today. They also only remember British armed forces, not civilian dead, or the dead if other nationalities.

I also hate the way that if you don't wear a poppy you are somehow being a traitor to your country news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6134906.stm

Amongst other things, in my 24 years I have been involved in:

Fire service strikes (3 times - and once straight off the Iraq return transport)
Ambulance service strikes (as HQ only)
Flood defences and rescue (4 bloody years in a row)
The foot and mouth debacle
Guarding Heathrow
Guarding the Olympics

All of those things would have been impossible without the modern British Military.

Those who refuse to wear a poppy because you don't want to support the modern military - what would you have suggested instead of the military in those cases then?

FWIW I did go to Iraq, and I am very happy with what I did there. I didn't go to Afghanistan.

Are those two places the sole reason for your objections?

What about Bosnia?
Kosovo?
Sierra Leone?
Northern Ireland?

Yes I do Janine.

Yes of course they support those still serving. There are vast disadvantages faced by those who serve and their families.

The RBL was set up because the society that the soldiers gave their lives for shunned those who returned. They could not get work and were left in poverty. The RBL work hard to ensure soldiers and their families are not left out in the cold.

I don't like them because of the white feather. I think red poppies are a symbol of peace on their own to be honest.

Smug and sanctimonious are not the words that spring to mind when I read through all these very different explanations from posters who wear a white poppy, not at all.

Best not to mention Northern Ireland in that list.

Eve: But why is it so terrible to wear a white poppy?
White poppy wearers don't spit on red poppy wearers.

Why do some red poppy wearers have to be so violent towards white poppy wearers.

It is the same venom that the COs received in WW11.

My son doesn't diffuse bombs, he's not some kind of homicidal air freshener. He DEFUSES them.

Thanks for making me look like a tit, autocorrect.

i feel complicated about poppies. i appreciate that soldiers have had to sacrifice. i appreciate that their familes grieve.

but.

i have family in a country which was bombed by NATO, and depleted uranium shells used. I have cousins whose children have rare and strange cancers.

i am sure that people can successfully argue that this is necessary, and even righteous, but me, i can't bear the thought that my money freely given might ever help the people who did that to them.

i don't need anyone to tell me they had it coming, or that they brought it on themselves.

I've never said it was 'terrible to wear a while poppy' I think it is distasteful and disrespectful to do so on the one day a year set aside to remember the fallen.

If the PPU is serious in its beliefs, then why not instigate a 'hope for peace day' I'd support that, I would expect most would. It could even be held on 11 May for example - exactly 6 months away from Remembrance.

I wear a purple poppy pin alongside my red poppy to commemorate and remember the animals killed in service. I wear a red poppy alongside my purple poppy to commemorate and remember the service people killed in service. The White poppy offers no such commemoration or remembrance.

If the PPU 're-branded' and said the White poppy was for the Remembrance of civilians killed in conflict, or for the remmembrance of other forces killed in conflict, I'd wear one. But it isn't.

Crikey, I didn't know the white poppy was that contentious, it makes sense to me to wear both.

Red poppy to remember all those who fought for us
White poppy to support the increasing reality of the peace that those who fought fought for

Red Poppy - I will remember you, forever
White Poppy - and the world thanks you, forever

That's how I wear mine. If you want to call me a sanctimonious twat, or think I am sadly misinformed, go right ahead. But I see no problem with being able to thank those who have fought/are fighting whilst hoping that their bravery and sacrifice means that future generations won't have to.

I don't wear a poppy. I have no issue with red or white poppies. I don't donate to the RBL.

My grandfathers didn't serve to ensure peace. They served because joining the army was what you did in their towns when there were no other jobs to be had. They served because they were ordered to do so and because they had faith in those orders. They returned from war as broken men as did many. They considered themselves bad men. Neither of them condemned those who didn't fight or those who spoke out against war being an acceptable tool of foreign policy.

Both were supported in later years by Erskine hospital. My donation goes there and my thoughts will be with all the war dead, military and civilian, home and abroad. War is a tragedy for all concerned so wear a poppy, don't wear one - it doesn't really matter when all is said and done. A poppy doesn't ease or increase the profound sense of sadness I feel when the time comes to remember the dead.

eve, thank you for that link.

howl, you implied that, because going after Hitler was a good thing in the 1930s, equivalent military action in the current day is logically acceptable.

I've spotted some themes here - dislike of the white poppy because it is co-opting an existing symbol, and dislike of it because it implies that the wearer does not support the RBL. What if an alternative symbol (say, a white star or something) were introduced with funds from sales going directly to support servicemen and families of servicemen? Would the anti-white-poppy people feel less strongly about it then?

What if an alternative symbol (say, a white star or something) were introduced with funds from sales going directly to support servicemen and families of servicemen

This is exactly where the funds from the red poppies go.

Someone upthread quoted the white poppy website: We distribute the white poppies each year to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable.

That's a big part of my problem with white poppies: so long as ranting demagogues hyped on extremist politics/religion/nationalism can swing their nations behind them, we are going to face armed conflicts of one sort or another. Until we can cure human nature of its various ills, I fear that wars are inevitable.

I also don't have a problem drawing a line between politicians who take the country into illegal wars (that's you I'm a-looking at, Tony Blair) and the armed forces. As EveDallas pointed out, Forces activity goes way beyond fighting wars in any case.

Nothing stops me, every year, from remembering the civilian war dead along with the troops. I start with my own family and our own little litany of summary execution and starvation (war dead) and massacre (civilians) and then I think about everyone else, and how horrible war is.

Does any of that sound smug or sanctimonious? I hope not.