to think the term "menz" is bloody irritating?!

[Squtternutbaush]

Since we've had the recent influx of (anti)feminist threads appearing I've noticed that anytime an issue arises that might put males at a disadvantage they are dismissed with this bloody belittling term and its really starting to grate on me now.

I understand that in most peoples eyes feminism is about equality but it seems that some are intent on turning it into a war between women and men and being just as disrespectful to males as they complain that males are to females.

I'm not denying in anyway that feminism is a great thing or that women haven't been at a disadvantage forever but I don't see how this attitude helps the cause.

I have a son and a daughter and I want them both to have a respect for people regardless of gender!

It will always sound sneery to me.

I have no issue with what is being said but I do have an issue with how its put forward.

This^^

Notsoquite thank you for that post, I understand what you mean now and yes it does take the snide tone off.

Can I ask those who have said that when they have stated issues also affect men they have been dismissed, what their motivation was for raising the plight of men in the first place? Is it because they think other posters don't actually believe it is possible for men to be single parents, victims of DV etc and feel the need to educate them? Or is it because they disagree that these issues disproportionately impact on women, or is it something else?

I'm not being sneery, I'm genuinely curious.

You're welcome.

Well on the topic of domestic violence, which seems to keep coming up as a point of equivalence, the issues around an individual man who beats a woman or an individual woman who beats a man is very different to the issues that surround why men as a class perpetrate so much violence against women as a class.

If women and men cannot have a space to speak about the latter, on its own terms, without having to negotiate around people jumping up and down about someone's bil who was battered by their wife and accusing people of hating men, then little can be achieved.

So I think 'menz' is fine but then I don't tend to post on these threads.

Hakult

I actually fully understand what you say on your post and agree with it for the most part. I cannot see men, as a gender, changing anything for anyone as it's not in their interests. I just don't get how abolishing gender and then promoting the female cause (which I do agree with) are compatible. We are either all equal, as in non gender, or we are not. If we believe we are all equal then we have to acknowledge there is good and bad in both sexes and abuse, as per your example, is not focused entirely at one sex by the other and we should, being indifferent to the social construct which some believe gender to be (I'm not sure its purely a social consruct), be acknowledging it as a issue for all of humanity, regardless of gender, and fighting against abuse for all.

If we do not do this are we simply not just reinforcing tthe concept of gender and all it's associated stereotypes? As is exactly what happens when feminist use the 'menz' term. It completely damages their stance on equality and reinforces the social constructs that they claim to despise.

Personally I think there is a difference between being equal and being the same. I don't want to be the same as a man, this does not mean I have to be a girly girl though. I also don't see the need to belittle and patronise men as I don't think that will make my position stronger. I am far more interested in the 'We're all in this together' train of thought and think that reinforcing the us and them with comments like 'menz' does more harm than good.

I don't expect people to agree with me but it is how I see this. To me it is illogical.

Why is it always the responsibility of women to think about EVERYBODY affected by an issue? Seriously, why? Women, whether as a group or as individuals are no more naturally 'caring' than men are. And given their lack of power in society, why is it down to them to right ALL the wrongs of patriarchy (because let's face it, rape, abuse and violence towards men is overwhelmingly carried out by other men) for everyone?

This is not to say that there shouldn't be support in place for men who suffer from abuse/DV/violence/rape, of course there should. I know several men who have suffered DV at the hands of their male partners and have been able to access the help that they need, I can see there is a gap for men suffering from female-inflicted DV, but in that respect they are also victims of patriarchy because men aren't meant to be victims of women, they are likely to get laughed at or disbelieved if a woman beats them up, the silence and lack of organised help surrounding the issue is a direct result of such gender stereotypes.

But why does it have to be women (or, rather, feminists, as it is feminists who get jumped on most about this) who organise the support? Why can't we just talk about women's issues?

I've rarely seen the phrase 'the menz' used on FWR and when I have, it's usually to a man complaining that his voice isn't being listened to enough. In a world where men are deferred to and their opinions generally taken seriously, I can understand that this can be a culture shock and appear rude/intolerant/man-hating. It's honestly not. Like FarelyKnuts said, it's like an annoying friend wanting to make the conversation all about THEM.

And now, as a SAHM, I'm about to go undermine the patriarchy some more by playing Farm Heroes instead of cleaning the house... :o

I wouldn't class myself as a feminist at all. The amount of crap that people call "feminism" nowadays is just men-hating and disgusting. menz is cringy.

So how does the "we're all in this together" work?

How are we going to convince men that "we're all in this together" and they have to do their bit to make things more "equal" for women?

" The amount of crap that people call "feminism" nowadays is just men-hating and disgusting. "

Examples, please?

Basgetti I mentioned a male domestic violence support website on a thread that was about support offered to domestic violence victims, there was no gender mentioned and it wasn't in relation to a specific poster it was simply about the support networks available. People were sharing experiences and obviously WomensAid etc was discussed so I added details of a page for male victims and shared my cousins story and that he had struggled to find a place to speak to but these people ultimately helped him get out.

I wasn't saying "but what about the menz" I was sharing a relevant link on a non-gender specific thread.

Can I just say I think it is illogical to hold to these two statements?

'I cannot see men, as a gender, changing anything for anyone as it's not in their interests.'

'I am far more interested in the 'We're all in this together' train of thought'

As your first statement says, 'men' don't want to change their privilege. So we aren't all in this together. We as women could go around saying 'we are all in this together' as much as we like, but if men don't feel the same we'll get nowhere.

There's no way of solving this without challenging men and the status quo. That is going to be uncomfortable for the 'this particular man' that we all know. But it has to be done anyway.

Espii I think that's a not harsh, man-hating is a concept of feminism that was most likely drummed up by a man. I certainly don't think its common place but there is a minority who certainly seem to portray this attitude at times.

*bit

I use it on occasion. It isn't intended to be dismissive and sneery towards men. It's a response to the fact that, so often, when something is being discussed from the point of view of its impact on women, someone will come along and say that's unreasonable and we should talk about men too. For example, in a discussion about underfunded illnesses, it would be perfectly reasonable to pop up and mention testicular cancer. In a discussion about breast cancer, whey do so many people jump up and down and say "but what about testicular cancer" and accuse other posters of being unreasonable if they don't want to divert down that route?

I wouldn't intentionally use it towards another poster I thought was joining in in good faith. I might use it in the abstract, or towards someone I suspected of trolling. I'm sorry you've been upset to have it directed at you OP.

I don't really see why the existence of specific FWR terminology is seen as inherently mean and exclusionary though (as some posts on this thread have suggested). Doesn't every sub-board, from breast and bottle feeding to dog house to conception have its own phrases?

OP I've just looked up that thread, and you did mention the plight of men pretty vocally. It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that you were being gender neutral.

It's seen as inherently mean and exclusionary, because it is.

Yes, other sub-boards have their own phrases and if they were mean and sneery, no doubt the posters using them would be called out on it too.

Basgetti it was about 2 years ago, I don't remember which thread or what I posted to be honest other than the subject matter.

As I've said its just a phrase that I don't like but someone explained it in better (more simplistic terms I suppose :o) terms and I understand why its used now, its still not a term I agree with though as I do think there are better ways to put it across

Worra- I wasn't talking about menz there. I was talking about general terminology. There seems to be a view, even leaving aside menz, that its mean and exclusionary to have terminology at all.

Honestly, I don't claim to have the answers but somewhere someone had to start these things. And if it's woman then so be it. But we cannot have it all, we cannot fight only for one side and claim we are all equal. So yes, unfortunately,it will have to be woman but we all know that already. Woman are more powerful than we give them credit for, they are after all the mothers and a strong mother can guide her sons correctly. When I've said that before I've been told. Why can't fathers do that... Well are they? Are they doing it? No... Not all of them will, many will never do that. So we need to. We need to tell out daughters they can acheive anything and the world is their oyster the coices are theirs. We need to teach our children about respect and self respect. We need to stand up and be counted as part of an equal society and show our sons and daughters that it's not about us and them. We need to lead by example or we carry on being the followers. That is our choice.

Anyway I'm at work so have to go...

would you use it if some one said what about men when talking about breast cancer)as men can get it as will) ??

Sorry OP, you said it was the 'Murdered by my boyfriend' thread so that was the one I looked at.

I still don't understand the need to raise the plight of men on such a thread anyway. Attempting to turn DV from an issue that is disproportionately carried out by men against women into something that is gender neutral only helps to ensure that effective action isn't taken, IMO. After all if male violence isn't called out for the horrendous problem that it is nothing will ever be done to stop it.

Even the front pages of the papers today prove that. If Isis had done more killing it would be labelled what it is, which is a religious extremist hate crime. But yet another man kills two women and there is no mention of the overwhelming problem of women being killed at the hands of violent men, instead it's just another day at the office.

"Honestly, I don't claim to have the answers but somewhere someone had to start these things"

So. How do we start it? I've been an active feminist for 35 years and I'm out of ideas. Happy to hand the baton to you. What would you like me to do first?