to think the term "menz" is bloody irritating?!

[Squtternutbaush]

Since we've had the recent influx of (anti)feminist threads appearing I've noticed that anytime an issue arises that might put males at a disadvantage they are dismissed with this bloody belittling term and its really starting to grate on me now.

I understand that in most peoples eyes feminism is about equality but it seems that some are intent on turning it into a war between women and men and being just as disrespectful to males as they complain that males are to females.

I'm not denying in anyway that feminism is a great thing or that women haven't been at a disadvantage forever but I don't see how this attitude helps the cause.

I have a son and a daughter and I want them both to have a respect for people regardless of gender!

YANBU

It's irritating, and belittling to whoever it's aimed at, as if they can't possibly be making a valid point because it concerns men and isn't all about women. If it's meant to be sarcastic it's a pretty pathetic attempt at it.

As lovecat said, it's used to point out that there is a tendency whenever women's issues are discussed for someone to pop up saying "but what about the men" and so it's a sarcastic way of pointing this out. Not just on MN either - just look at what happens under the line when the Guardian has an article about women and domestic violence, for example - within minutes the first posters pop up claiming the article is sexist because it doesn't reflect male experience. It happens with such depressing regularity to derail discussion of issues that affect women that it's just a weary way of pointing it out. And why shouldn't someone point it out when discussion about women is repeatedly derailed?

Do you have a response to Lovecat's point? Because that's how I feel too.

It's not about belittling men or denying them support. If a male friend disclosed abuse to me I would never be dismissive, or laugh, or make sarcastic comments. I would try and help him find support. I might even feel compelled to campaign, if it had affected me quite heavily or I had witnessed a real lack of services or something. (Actually I've heard some shocking things about how the police deal with male-on-male relationship abuse).

But no, I would not go onto an internet thread about violence against women and start asking everyone to consider the men.

I agree with lovecat.

Once when discussing single parents and I argued that some men are single parents too and it wasn't always the men who got up and left

But did anyone deny the existence of male single parents? Or were they just pointing out that the vast majority of lone parents are women, and therefore they are more adversely affected by welfare policies etc, as I think that is a valid point. If something impacts women disproportionately what is wrong with discussing it as a women's issue?

Lovecat has explained excellently.

Women need a space to be able to talk about the issues which affect them and to find their voice. Depressingly often when women try to do this a man comes along and says 'oh but what about the men?' which derails the conversation. Personally I am fairly sick of having to listen to men and there HAS to be a space where women can talk and argue and discuss without having to consider men's feelings. Yes, things like DV and rape can affect men, but they OVERWHELMINGLY affect women and women should be able to address this as a gendered issue without some bloke coming on and griping about not being included. The whole bloody world is run by men for men, the patriarchy exists for the benefit of men. But when women try to find a little corner of Mumsnet to talk about feminism without male interference, it seems some men just can't stand being excluded.

The phrase 'WAHT ABOUT TEH MENZ?' (Deliberately misspelt) has arisen to deal with this issue on here and on places like twitter because it does happen SO often and with such depressing regularity. There are lots of lovely feminist men out there, I am married to one of them, but they do just need to shut up sometimes and let women talk.

YANBU but I love your username OP!

But there are many things that disproportionately affect women. And feminism is about, primarily, levelling the playing field for women.

I understand (kind of) where you are coming from in that a discussion about women's issues shouldn't be turned around but at the same time I have seen a thread where domestic violence was being discussed and people were sharing experiences in general, a male stated that he had also been in such a relationship and struggled to find a support network that wasn't solely for women only to be told not to try turn it around for the menz, X% men report DV when its simply retaliation and that men don't need a support network because its predominantly a male to female problem.

I find that horrid and was the first time I'd heard the phrase.

I thought the cat and dog analogy was good. It's not about being a different species. And issues affecting animals tend to be similar across the board - neglect, bad treatment, abandonment, insufficient medical care, etc. All of these things should be stopped because they are bad, not because they're happening to one animal which is cuter, more defenceless, whatever, than another animal.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Male violence against women is different from female violence against men because of the cultural and social factors surrounding such interactions and relationships. Violence in same sex relationships have different factors as well. It's not helpful to lump all victims of DV in together, while there are similarities across the board, and you can't say that one kind is worse than another, it's not the same. That's why there are separate organisations for victims of MVAW, female violence against men and LGBT relationship violence. The barriers that victims face to leaving are different, the barriers to recovery, the barriers to getting help.

But presumably that was one poster? Not a whole horde of people. You can't stop one person having views which you don't agree with, and don't reflect those of the majority.

Could you link to that thread, squtternut?

Poster A: But that happens to men too!

Poster B: Oh, here we go. But what about teh menz?

Posters C, D, E, F: Haha, yes, I was counting down till we got someone saying that, there's always one isn't there, etc etc etc.

Poster A either vanishes or attempts to stand her ground and gets a lot of abuse. Either way, she decides to stay away from this topic again and so do dozens of other people who are lurking on the thread.

Compare and contrast:

Poster X: But that happens to men too!

Poster Y: Well, of course it does sometimes. But it happens far more often to women, and we are discussing why that might be and what we can do about it.

Nothing is guaranteed, but there might, just might, be a sensible discussion after this, with respect on all sides.

Which approach do you think will draw more people in?

Obviously feminism is about levelling the field for women and I am thankful that there are people who know far more about the subject than I do but I don't see why some feel the need to belittle others on the process

But did anyone deny the existence of male single parents? Or were they just pointing out that the vast majority of lone parents are women, and therefore they are more adversely affected by welfare policies etc, as I think that is a valid point. If something impacts women disproportionately what is wrong with discussing it as a women's issue?

But if the person says what you have said (about disproportionality) then I would wholeheartedly agree. I would still argue with someone who says that 'men are just bastards who get women pregnant and think nothing of leaving' (which is the point I was arguing with on that specific thread) because most men don't behave like that. I just don't think the term 'it's all about the menz, is an appropriate response and it's main aim is to belittle a poster.
A retort like that just makes me think that the person is incapable of having a reasonable conversation where they are open minded.

It was one about the "Murdered by my boyfriend" program that aired Hakylut

allmimsy has put it much better than I have and has said exactly what I was trying to say (albeit I said it very badly).

I agree whole heartedly with allmimsy, I would be happy to see a comment like the second scenario. I guess its the sneery tone I don't agree with.

Either feminism is about equality, or it's about making things better for women.

It can't be both. If it's about levelling the playing field for women, then that's absolutely fine, just don't try and pretend it's about equality when as soon as someone tries to put an equal balance on a conversation they get shot down with sarcastic menz comments.

It doesn't do the feminist movement any favours.

It's incredibly patronizing and always used in direct response to someone popping up on a thread being patronizing.

Heaven forbid women have discussions that largely effect them.

Woowoo I think I'm right in saying (from other peoples comments) that feminism about bringing women up to the level of men rather than levelling the playing field as it stands, so I guess its about promoting equality for women specifically until that is the case.

"And why shouldn't someone point it out when discussion about women is repeatedly derailed?"

How would you feel if you read a discussion about something which is traditionally / mostly male and was being described as a men's issue, you pointed out that women can be involved too, and you were told you were "derailing"? I'd be bloody furious. I'd hope that sort of discussion is derailed every single time.

Why shouldn't they point it out? Because feminism is supposed to be about EQUALITY, not about building an equally sexist structure for "women's issues". It is not "derailing" to suggest that we talk about an issue as a problem for everyone who is affected, not as a problem only for women just because they're the majority affected. If you think a discussion about DV or single parenting is a discussion about women, then there is something very badly wrong.

People pointed out DV doesn't only affect women? Good for them. Let's hope they are also pointing out that not all engineers are male, that women can have strokes too, and so on, on any and all articles which are inappropriately gender-specific... That's what feminists should be doing IMO - challenging "problem x only affects one gender" when it simply isn't true. Whichever the gender is.

Can I derail a bit and ask for some suggestions on basic feminist reading material please... I seem to have missed the point somewhat

I suppose the problem is that some of us have been round the block so many times that it's easy to forget that others haven't. It is very difficult to describe how infuriating and red mist producing the "but this happens to men too" line can be when you have been hearing it for 30 years! I personally don't use the "menz" line- I think it was funny and effective at first but isn't any longer. But I do see why others do. If you have been on a forum, for example, where people equate infant male circumcision with FGM and try to argue that they have a similar impact you may get a bit of the "red mist" yourself!

I've always jumped on those threads to be fair Hakylut.

Not the same thing at all!