To HATE the way my friends educate their children?

[Littlefrenchmummy]

I love reading things on mumsnet, especially this section. Today I was confronted with a situation that happens so often in my life and really gets me angry... You ladies are very honest so tell me if Im being a bitch or if you would feel the same.

Today my husband and I caught up with some old friends, like us they have a 4 year old boy. From the minute we met to when we left he trantrumed. He cried for EVERYTHING and not once was disciplined. (By that I dont mean punched in the face btw, I just mean told to behave).
He cried because he could only use his bike and not his scooter (sat on the pavement and screamed for 10 mins while we waited. Eventually parents gave in).
He cried because we crossed the road before him.
He cried because we were talking.
He cried because he couldn't get juice at the restaurant even though his parents were ordering him the juice.
He stood on tables, rode his scooter in the restaurant, shouted constantly.
He wouldn't speak to my son, only watch cartoons on his parents phone, wouldn't share the crayons to draw even though he didn't want to draw.
Kicked his brothers pram while he was sleeping. Etc etc... And all his parents were saying was "OH NO, if you do this again we are going to get cross!"

I just can't bare it. Its so horrible to sit through this, you can't have a conversation, my son isn't having fun, people at the restaurant are staring. I never want to hang out with my friends again. I love them but I hate their child, or more exactly I hate the way they educate him and turn him into complete dick head.

I have so many friends like them... so so many. Some worse, some less, but the result is the same: hanging out with them is painful. People who think you dont need to educate your children, that they have 'difficult' kid who cry a lot. They think its normal that if their child screams their name in the middle of a conversation, 10x times during 1 conversation, they should always stop and say yes darling instead of teaching them not to interrupt and wait while adults are talking.

I know some children are more difficult than others and that disorders exist. One of my son's is difficult and has a terrible character, still he doesn't behave like this. If I let him he would but I dont. I also have friends who have children with disorders, but in the cases Im talking about, its just complete lack of education.

Im loosing so many friends over this. I stop answering calls and make excuses not to hang out with them because I can't tell them how to educate their children. Who can tell a mother in the face that you dont like their child's behaviour? How awkward would that be?

We have made such a cut in our friends and now I am so picky. it sucks !
But why aren't people educating their children to behave?

Am I being unreasonable to feel this way or do other parents feel like this?

Where I live there are SO many children. On sundays in pubs every table has at least one child. And if you havent come across certain behaviours thats fine but how would you feel if children were escalating a fire place by your table and nearly falling on you? To all the people who think Im shouldn't 'judge' how would you feel if you'd had to sit through that meal?

I see all sorts of parents, children and behaviours. Like everybody. And I mostly dont pay attention but saturday I couldn't as they were my friends.
I see really well behaved children, I see children who behave but still talk loudly, have the occasional meltdown, spill stuff etc like mine, and then I see children that are all over the place. I dont see that every time, but I see it more often than Id care for and if Im at a restaurant that ruins my meal.. Im not going to pretend it doesn't?

That wasn't my original post though I was asking if my friend's son behaviour was normal to you? And then on the wider scheme of things if nowadays people didn't have to say NO to their children anymore.

My friends and the other 2 couples with children I mentioned that I struggle to be around, I've known them for 2 years + and I can SEE that they just never say no. Literally and they are nightmares to be around. You know those glass christmas balls that when you shake have snow in them? I remember once, a mother asked her son to stop running so close around us as we had boiling cups of tea and the lounge was huge and in response he took that ball and smashed it to her feet. I was so shocked. And she just said Oh dear and cleaned it up... I dont understand that.

What would you think if you were in that situation? What would you do if your child did that ?

I alo have many stories about great play dates, where the kids had a great time, maybe a few arguments here and there but it was generally nice, chaotic which is normal, but nice.

I'm sure you've seen it. You must socialise quite a bit, probably more than I do but I honestly think it would bother me less than it bothers you.

I don't drink tea or coffee either, maybe that helps? Not constantly worried about hot drinks being dashed from my hand by rambunctious children .

If such families stress you so much, why do you continue to socialise with them and their children? You also do need to realise this is not France, and people do parent differently.

Some of the stories sound awful, but without knowing those children I can't comment. It could be that the parent is ineffectual, it could be that they know to behave differently will just make things worse or...

I don't know.

What I do know is that you have been repeatedly told here that some of your language is found offensive. People on MN tend to try to be very tolerant, and understand other cultures, but equally if you are living in the UK it would be worth your while trying to learn what language is not used about children, or much in polite society.

I think the parental response to wilful damage or wilful harm to another child is an interesting one.
I have seen children break things, as the OP describes in her most recent post. And these have often been children beyond toddler years.....so 4,5,8 even 10. They have had a rage and responded violently.
And I have seen the response of 'oh that was naughty' followed by nothing more, even if it another child's toy that has wilfully been broken.
I have also seen the child be sent to their room for 2 minutes (at 8 years old!) and then nothing further.
And I have seen the child be lightly told off, cry in response to this and then receive a big hug and cuddle to stop the tears......parents saying 'he is so sensitive to being told off, you can see how sorry he is' followed by the parent APOLOGISING TO THE CHILD for upsetting them.
And I think to myself, no he isn't sorry. He doesn't like being told off and is now manipulating you, so somehow you are the one in the wrong for telling him off and end up apologising to him. HOW does bad behaviour end up with that?? I've seen it a few times......even with the buying of an ice cream to placate the crying child, and everything about the wilful damage forgotten.
What lessons does a child take from such a scenario? That they are untouchable in their behaviour, that they can get away with anything, that their parents can be manipulated, that other people's possessions and person can be treated in any way they feel, that there are no consequences for any kind if behaviour. And then we wonder why children who have had that kind of experience at home find school difficult!

As a parent of one NT child, one child with disabilities, and one with SNs, I still haven't seen a child standing on the table. I think that may be fairly rare.

I have stopped getting together with a couple acquaintances because they are judgemental about my ds1, who struggles in a restaurant. He tends to chatter constantly at a high volume and get upset easily, plus he has sensory issues so the people and noise and lights make him agitated. Some restaurants are easier to cope with than others. But a few judgemental comments convinced me quickly that these few were not friends. I find it hard to believe that a friend would comment to me that HER children are quite able to sit quietly at lunch and that it's poor manners to allow him a tablet or phone to play on in order to be quiet at the table. (you see there how no matter what he does, he's doing something wrong?) I simply have no time in my life for people like that. I still take him to restaurants with the hope that eventually it will be easier. It's a long term work in progress.

It's isolating enough to have children with SNs/disabilities and taking them to a restaurant can be a bit stressful. While it may take an NT child 2-3 times to understand the "rules" of behaviour in a restaurant, it may take a child with SNs/disabilities much much longer, and it's possible they may never fully grasp them. Ds1 is so overwhelmed by the sensory input that stresses him out that he struggles to remember the basics. He is the same in the supermarket, in the bank (because it echoes and "the walls and floors are hard"), outside when it's raining or snowing, or when it's windy.

Sometimes he is in his wheelchair, sometimes he is not. The judgemental reactions are MUCH more vocal and the looks much more frequent when he is not in his wheelchair, but they are still there regardless. When he was younger, I didn't tell people about his disabilities, as I didn't really know what to say. Then I found myself excusing his behaviour all the time due to it. Then I finally decided you know what? It's not their business. I shouldn't have to justify him to everyone that gives us a dirty look because he makes noise. I shouldn't have to share his medical information with just anyone that acts like I have to apologise.

And no, I don't discipline him in front of people, as it's complicated. And yes, I speak calmly to him and don't shout or make threats. He just gets upset which increases his anxiety and gets worse. But neither do I walk out unless he is distressed. He has a right to eat in a restaurant, even if he does make some noise. I try to limit it, obviously, but he has a right to be there. I realise some may not realise he is disabled. But that's not my problem.

That's an interesting point Alice about intolerance towards my dc with SN. I too avoid certain people wig react to them like this. Maybe I should start an AIBU thread about it?

Sorry that should be tolerance to dc with SN not MY dc.

I've been a parent 20 years in December, I have never seen children standing on tables, scooting round restaurants, climbing fireplaces etc.

In all that time there has only been one child I have withdrawn from. She was an absolute nightmare, her mother was a wet blanket who cared more about her show dogs than she did her DD. The little girl would break my children's toys, run through the house like a whirlwind and break my ornaments. I couldn't put up with it. Her mother would sit there and say "oh, she's a one!"

I've had lots of children over on play dates and for tea, they have all been well behaved and AFAICR there hasn't been one that I haven't had back.

I never talked about children with SN or ASD because its different. I read some go undiagnosed until school and I appreciate that because it can be subtle and/ or misunderstood. The 2 children Im referring to just never have been set any limits. Its easy to see that this is why they act just however they want. If they want to climb they climb if they want to break they break. Why wouldn't they?

Also re the comments about France. Really? I need to realise this isn't France? I have never raised my children in France and the people in my original post are French. Irrelevant comment. I just like well behaved children, people from every country in the world can appreciate that.

if you think me not wanting my children to behave like complete idiots is because I was brought up eating croissant you are wrong. And as for the swearing get over it we are adults, Im just being a bit over the top!

I just thought the behaviour of saturday was really bad and I found it really upsetting. And I questioned myself because I dont think Im perfect. The majority of people on this thread think that manners are important and children should be set limits. Thats all I wanted to know and Im glad I wasn't over reacting that much in the end. Not that I let anything transpire at the time.

I think everyone on this thread thinks manners are important and limits should be set. The discussion was more about how that should be done and what actually constitutes bad behaviour.

I do think the the op being french is significant here. I have lived in France for over 10 years and there is very much more of a 'children must be seen and not heard' culture here and they spend a lot of time telling their children off in public.

I was at the park the other day and a woman was telling her children off for whooping with joy too loudly!

*whooping with joy too loudly while on the swings

My children thrived on having boundaries and a routine. They are incredibly well mannered. However, I am not so up my own arse to believe that how I have parented my children is the right and only way and everyone else must follow.

You obviously don't like your friend's son, and your friends will know that and probably feel really uncomfortable and judged around you, so withdraw and get in with your own life.

It's funny that you think manners are important, yet you have no problem referring to little children as "dickheads" and "complete idiots"! That is not polite in my book!

Well thats weird I would never do something like that.
I think what constitutes bad manners is the things I have described.
Shouting with joy in the park is something I love my child to do all the time !

I'm at work must be off my phone, I'll catch you all later. Have a great day X

yeah i have to admit the telling a child off for whooping on a swing isn't a common occurance! and sorry i hadn't seen your last post about your friends being french so my comment was pretty irrelevant.

officervanhelsing apologies for getting ratty at your post.

The point I was making, OP, is that some people that know us only know a minimum of ds1's disabilities (as obviously sometimes he uses his wheelchair, so they know something's going on there) and most know nothing about ds2's SNs. I know of one family in particular that I have known since before our 5yos were born, as the mum and I were pregnant at the same time, and yet I only discovered recently that her son has SNs - and that was only due to a chance comment I made where she then asked me, followed by her telling me about her son's SNs. Prior to that, I had no idea. Some people do not discuss it for various reasons - lack of support, unsure how to mention it, worried about people being judgemental, and so on.

Just because you know the family, don't assume that you know it all. There might be other issues at play that you're not aware of. Parents, especially those of children with SNs that are in the process of being diagnosed or even newly diagnosed, can often be a bit flummoxed as they are adjusting to new information and worrying that their particular parenting style might "mess up" their child and may come across as ineffective parents, when in reality, they're just in an adjustment phase. I know I struggled while trying to adjust. Parenting ds1 and ds2 has been worlds different than parenting dd was.

I totally understand that SN might mean a child behaves differently and that usual expectations might not apply.
And I understand too, that all SN are not obvious and parents are not going to go around announcing them to complete strangers.

However, I am not entirely clear in my own mind, why parents don't tell good friends about the SN, if they have a significant impact on behaviour. I'm not saying this to be confrontational and I hope anyone with children with SN will hear what I am saying as a genuine question. - because I really would like to understand, rather than being seen as a SN basher. It just seems to me, that I and others would be sympathetic and understanding about behaviour, if we knew it was related to a SN. We would be sympathetic and understanding of parenting methods which might not confront the behaviour.

I get that people don't want to be explaining stuff to strangers or casual acquaintances, but when we are talking about old friends, with whom you spend a lot of time, and with whom relations seem a bit strained, because the other person has no sense of what is behind the behaviour, wouldn't it be useful to give at least some brief info? I don't really get this idea that has been mentioned here that some parents with SN children decide that a lack of tolerance on the part of others means they cannot be friends with those people anymore, when those seemingly intolerant people have no idea of the issues behind what is going on.

As someone upthread said, we probably all should be a bit more tolerant. We don't know with strangers what is going on. We don't always know the full story with our friends either, but just a little bit of information would help us to give that tolerance.

And as I said earlier in my post, I ask, not to criticise parents with SN, who already have a hard time....but just to understand a bit more, why people might keep the SN which are contributing towards difficult behaviour hidden from good friends.

Parents don't often know what SN the child has at that age, just that discipline methods don't work and they struggle

ASD is frequently diagnosed later than 4 and until there is an official diagnosis you get people telling you you just need to parent differently.

Chocolate wombat,

It can be a host of reasons.
They may not know exactly what is going on or what the child's difficulty is.
They may not want to be open about an issue in case it can be resolved or improves.
They may not trust friends or their partners, or their partners children to respect their privacy. I know of more than one occasion where a parent has confided that their child is being assessed for ADHD and the friends child then asked the child about it.
People gossip. People find out that a child has ADHD or is being screened for autism and that child is suddenly not the same as other kids.

If you were just about to watch your child enter school and he had difficulties which may be autism or may just be a behavioural blip would you tell people ? Would you chose to place that question mark against your hold or would you cross your fingers and hope that in a years time this 'problem' might have gone?

It is also your child's privacy in a way. I can chose what I say to people about Pagboy because he can't understand. But if he was a smart 10 year old with who is trying to mask behaviours because he wants to fit in I would have to consider carefully who is entitled to that nformation and is my son entitled to chose when he is older.

Hi. Thanks for the helpful replies.
I can see that many SN are not diagnosed pre-school and also that people going through a process of diagnosis don't want to be telling people about stuff that isn't certain.
Hadn't thought of the older child wanting to mask their SN to try to fit in, so parents keeping quiet and leaving the telling to the older child....makes sense.

The reason I asked if that I have a friend with a 9 year old who was diagnosed with ADHD about 3 years ago. She told us (old friends in local area, but with kids in different school) but has decided not to tell anyone else. I have watched over the last probably 4 years as he has increasingly been left out of play dates, not invited to parties and the mum has also been cut out of the mummies social circle. His behaviour has sometimes been aggressive with other children and he has broken their possessions. We have mutual acquaintances and I have heard them call the boy 'evil little sod' 'nasty piece of work' and the mum as 'totally lax'. And I have had to stand by and just mutter things about not knowing the full story etc etc, whilst at the same time, having had my children on the receiving end of some of his less good behaviours.
Most of these parents are normal people. I would like to think that if they had known about his ADHD most of them would have cut the boy and his mum a bit more slack. She has been really hurt by their cutting them out and now feels even less inclined to communicate. She blames them for their isolation.....but my point is, that they don't know!
Now, the boy is being put on Ritalin and although the dose isn't set firmly yet, his behaviour is better. He gets through most days without being in big trouble at school and his mum is thrilled. He has come to our house and not wrecked the toys or other stuff, which often happened in the past.
I think he might be able to cope socially with the other kids now....I've encouraged my friend to invite some kids over, so they can see him doing better, but she is still angry at the way they have been excluded and doesn't want to, so they remain isolated.

Incidentally, along with the Ritalin, and probably before that, the other thing that has helped (and I realise it wouldn't help all SN) on advice from the medics etc, is her imposing a very clear expectations and discipline policy, with a structured day. It wasn't her natural approach. She was more lasses faire and child led, but she would say herself, that the boy has done better with clearer expectations.

So thanks for the helpful replies. I can see that SN are complex and the reasons people don't talk about them complex too. I just hate to see my friend so isolated and whilst I'm sure some people still would have not wanted to have the 'ADHD boy' over to play, I think some people would have made more of an effort if they had known.

ChocolateWombat and of course, you get the other parents that shy away from a child with SNs, like they're contagious or something. And I say that from experience. Some parents are very much "oh you don't want to play with him..." or the moment they DO know your child has SNs, it's like you're vapor.. air.. you don't exist. It's a horrible feeling, so I think some of us prefer to only tell (in person anyway) those who we are close to.

I have told some close friends, who remain close friends because they are very much "okay, it's just part of who they are, and I'm not fussed, let's go have coffee" and told some friends I thought were close but who immediately made comments like "oh, he doesn't look like he has autism" or "so he's like Rainman then?" (seriously.. you couldn't make it up - I've had the Rainman comment from a couple of people and it always makes me feel just a bit stabby) or they simply fade away because it makes them uncomfortable.

You find that when a child starts to behave differently (not aggressive just different) people move their child away. This only has to happen a few times for you to distance yourself from that group of people.

OP, YANBU. I have left restaurants early several times because there have been badly behaved children disturbing my meal (and I don't mean the usual noise that is to be expected from a family). I hate it when young children run around with hot food and drinks nearby without being told to stop by their parents. Those parents are doing their son a huge disservice by not correcting his poor behaviour as rude, entitled brats can often become rude, entitled adults.