To not make DS say, "Please may I..."

[LandOfCakes]

We say, "Can I..... please". I know this isn't the biggest thing in the world but I notice I'm in the minority on this amongst the mums I am friends with. Am I setting up DS to be a social outcast? Does it matter where in the country you are? I do appreciate there is a difference in meaning but that's just what I have always said.

As long as the word "please" is in there somewhere,I don't think it's too important....

As long as they're asking nicely for something I really don't see the problem. I have always said "please can I.." No one has ever mentioned it to me. I think if you had manners yourself you wouldn't be so rude as to correct someone in such demeaning way.

I think that's awful to say "I don't know if you can, but you may" - what a way to embarrass a child who is merely trying to ask politely!

They are two different questions. 'Can I?' is about capability. 'May I?' is asking for permission. It's not the end of the world but 'Can I?' is wrong and I will hear in my head; 'you certainly can, the question is may you'

I'm Scottish. Could never say "may I?" It sounds totally odd.

Please can I leave the table?, please can I have...? are what I would say. IMO the addition of the please changes it from "am I able to..." to "do I have permission to..."

IMO it's not simply good vs bad manners. It is regional. But I'm afraid you moved so you need to teach your ds whatever is said where you live now.

Sister - if you were asking "Can I eat a banana?" you thought you were asking permission to have a banana but the question was "Am I able to eat a banana?" to which the answer "I don't know - can you?" would make sense! "May I eat a banana?" is asking for permission for a banana.

We aren't strict on either, just care about politeness. if you make a point of saying "May I....." yourself might be your DS will tend to say "May I" more - especially if his friends are saying May I rather than Can I.

For me the 'may I' version is antiquated language. Like using 'one' to refer to yourself or 'gay' to mean happy.

There was a time when 'may I' asked permission and 'can I' asked about ability. I really don't think that's the case anymore.

To my ear 'may I' sounds like an impression of someone from an Enid Blyton book - just not current enough for me to be comfortable.

This is exactly how language evolves - it's fascinating.

sisternancy- 'can'= is it possible, 'may'= is it permitted

ithoughofitfirst- that is so cute Mine speak proper English now. I miss those days.

cross post with 50 others...

Oh my goodness this brings back memories of mum and dad often saying, " you can, but you may not".

See, I say "may I" (as does ds) but now I feel like people think I'm a bit of a twat! It's just what I was taught and so have passed on to ds.

If I ever dared to ask "Can I ...." the response used to be "You can ..., but whether you may or not is another matter."

My late not so dm was born in 1915, though. Maybe that explains it.

My pet hate is the word "please" being tacked on the end, rather like an afterthought, as in "Can I do x, y, z (pause) please?". I find in my ears, that sounds a bit agressive.

English is not my mother tongue so I really like threads like this. I learn a lot.

I used to get genuinely baffled when someone asked me 'please can I have some water?' or whatever. It didn't make sense to my ears but I soon learned.

Even though I do hear it sometimes I would never used 'Can I...' as it still seems very wrong, I have taught my children this. However OP, yanbu to use what you are comfortable with. The beauty of language is that it is ever evolving.

What I do not understand is when some say speaking correctly sounds contrived or 'posh'. It appears to be like inverted snobbery.

Well I know your DS is only four but can you try and teach him this:

"Can you be less pedantic please? I'm four"

I don't think it is a big issue unless your trying to impress (in which case I hardly think asking to go to the toilet is appropriate). However, "Can I go to the toilet?" is asking whether you have the ability to go. "May I ..." is asking permission. So if your child is asking permission, "Can I ..." is incorrect.

Ha ha, tb, that's because it is agressive! If I'm emailing at work, I always tag 'please' on to the end of a sentence if I'm asserting my authority. I use 'please' at the beginning of the sentence when I'm asking for a favour.

Museumum, totally agree that 'can I' is very Scottish. We had posh English relatives staying last week so I thought I'd better be polite and look like I am setting a good example to my children so I said 'may I.' My mum looked at me like I'd grown 2 heads!

As long as please/thank you and a polite/kind manner are used, I'm not concerned what order and filler words DS uses.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm not trying to impress - just don't want DS to stand out for the wrong reasons. I'm interested at least one other person has confirmed that Can I is more common in Scotland.

I've just told DH about this thread and he says that DS actually says,"Please may can I...." so maybe I do need to sort it out!

All that fussiness over grammar nowadays does seem old fashioned and as some pointed out a bit unnecessary for little children to understand . Although I do check myself even now to remember to say " may I" .

The key thing is that he says please and has manners.

You should model the correct phrasing. He will learn that way.

'May I' sounds really archaic to me. We had to use it at primary school, but I don't think I've ever used it in my adult life. I'd feel uncomfortable if someone asked my permission using 'may I', it sounds far too humble. 'Can I.. please', 'do you mind if I...', 'please could I...' all are perfectly acceptable to most people.

'Can I' is only incorrect for asking for permission according to traditional prescriptive grammars, which don't reflect the way that people (including well educated people, news broadcasters etc) speak. Google 'English modal verbs' and try to find one place that doesn't include requesting/granting permission as one of the meanings of 'can'. Not having a go at anyone here, I'm just anti-prescriptive grammar.

thisfence love it.

Good manners are a trait, not an exercise in recital and grammar.

I never say "may I", sounds archaic and southern

I guess I shouldn't be surprised when a grammar question comes up and people are so certain that "can I" is about capability, it's not, it's been used for permission throughout English history, it would've taken you 20 seconds to go to the OED and see what they'd recorded:

But the 'permission' use of can is not in fact incorrect in standard English. The only difference between the two verbs is that one is more polite than the other. In informal contexts it’s perfectly acceptable to use can; in formal situations it would be better to use may.

www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/can-or-may

I can't really see something more informal than a family member talking to another, entirely appropriate language use to me.

YANBU

oddly enough my DD (5, almost 6) was complaining about this yesterday - how she doesn't like "Please may I?" I suspect it's because I'm English and pedantic and she is Irish and at an Irish school with other Irish kids who wouldn't say "may I" unless they were taking the piss out of an English accent.