... to think school are making a big fuss about not a lot (toilet training)

[PaddingtonFromPeru]

DD 3.5 started school nursery in Sept. She has always struggled a bit with getting to the loo to wee, but was totally dry throughout August.
School policy states children must be toilet trained (which DD is/was). She was dry for the first 1-2 weeks of school and since then has had an accident nearly every day.
I think this may have something to do with her not liking one of the key workers very much, as she often mentions she is scared of her and the key helper started at this time as cover for someone off sick.
School are making a really big think of all the accidents, to the extent that I have had to take DD to the doctors for blood tests (def. not diabetes or a kidney problem) and have now had to get an endocrinologist involved.
To me, although school policy does say they prefer children toilet trained, they should bear in mind it is only week 5 or so of term and try to get to the bottom of the "scared of key worker" problem. AIBU?

A colleague of mine had a parent last week brushing off the fact that her dd had had yet another accident in school with the comment "Oh, but she's only 7."
(Disclaimer: no SNs)

I agree with rumbleinthejungle.

I'm a nursery teacher in a school nursery. We take children from 3 years old. We have children at every stage of continence/toilet training.

Children often have a regression when they start nursery due to a number of different factors: Sometimes they are busy playing, sometimes they don't realise how long it will take them to get from the far end of the outside area back to the toilet, sometimes they are missing home, sometimes they are tired etc. etc.

We welcome all children to nursery and simply say to parents that we are happy to work with them on toilet training when the time is right for their child. Sometimes that's led by the child, sometimes by the parent, and sometimes by us.

The only time we would suggest seeing a GP is if a child suddenly starts having accidents or their weekng/pooing pattern changes as it can be a sign of a bladder/kidney infection, or could be overflow from constipation.

With the child, we never make a big deal about it and are very matter of fact.

I think you need to go and have another conversation with the school as their actions sound completely over the top. Do you know what their ratio of adults to children is?

Could you be anymore patronising Happy?

And pray, what are your credentials for sharing your theories on 'making children ready'? As for 'teaching and rewarding', well really, thanks for that, I'm sure most parents would never have thought of that themselves or perhaps even thought to give it a try

Bully for you that your two were dry by 2 years and 3 months.

That's great and you deserve a big pat on the back I'm sure but you've only trained two children and cannot speak for every child and their readiness.

I just find this sanctimonious attitude about toilet training so infuriating. Are you similarly so arrogant about women being able to 'train' their baby to breast feed?

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink! A child will do it when they are ready!

Happy when they are ready you won't need to carry a pot around and spend weeks or months cleaning accidents as they will be physically ready and will do it with the minimum mess. You might spend weeks or months trying to train them, but might arrive at the same journey as if you had waited.

it is still in the normal range not to be continent at three and a half. stress causes children to wet. it is not that unusual to have children who wet in school nurseries. some go to nursery in nappies/pullups. children have accidents, that is why they have a box of pants at nursery.

some children have sensory issues and can not feel when they need the toilet.

Happy go into a classroom of chikdren you won't know which ones were ready at 18 months and which ones were ready at 3+ years. By trying to train toddlers when they are just nit physically ready can cause them stress. If tgey are not getting it after a couple if weeks, they are not ready.

Any child care setting dealing with 3 year olds should be expecting to deal with ones who are not fully dry and those who are struggling with it

I think it is a physical developmental thing like, say, learning to walk. You can help a child learn to walk by encouraging them and helping them, but you can't ultimately control it. And just like learning to walk there is a huge normal range of when bladder & bowal control is achieved. Childcare settings that deal with preschool children need to deal with this fact and not make parents or children feel judged, even if it makes life harder for them.

Def time to talk to the nursery about the key worker in question. These children are 3-4. There is absolutely. No need for any key worker to be raising their voice, let alone shouting at young children. It is very unprofessional for the manager too also let this continue. Sorry, but I too would be considering moving my child from this environment. I say this as a parent and early years teacher.

Exactly Thole it's developmental! I tried to train dd now 7 when she was in her 2s several times. We got to the point where we were both getting stressed about it. So the lovely Mumsnetters on here told me to out her back in pull ups and wait. I waited until she was 3.2 months and she was giving me signals that she was becoming ready. It took her a couple of weeks to crack but we got there. Later on we discovered she has ASD abd dev delays. I feel so guilty that I stressed her out about it when she was 2.

Ds is 2.7 years. I tried in May for a couple of weeks he was not getting it so back in pull ups, tried in a august for a couple of weeks, again nit getting it so back in pull ups. Will try in tge Easter when he us 3.3 years and no going back. Hopefully his speech will improve x(got speech delay under SALt). I will nit stress and hopefully he will be that bit older.

I think it is possible that older mums posting on this thread are forgetting hoe it really was and/or idealising s bygone age.

There is no doubt that uncomfortable cloth nappies which needed hand washing provided both parents and toddlers with greater motivation to toilet train early. modern nappies are so good that children hardly feel wet in them, and they are no trouble to dispose of (apart from environmental concerns, obviously. ..)

my 72 year old mil is always telling me about how her three were toilet trained early and always in bed at 6.30pm every night - but then she tells the odd story which gives the lie to this (e.g. dh aged 5 blocking the loo with a whole roll of paper at 8pm when his dad was home). I believe she is being truthful about what she remembers, but I also think she has put a rosy glow on it over the years. I also see that she is much more patient and understanding with my little boys (her grandchildren) than she claims to have been with her own children. .. . but I bet she was just as indulgent and loving with dh and his siblings!!

No medical professional will see your child as "late toilet training" until they are about 4 years old at least. I have looked into this quite recently, for a friend.

My own ds1 refused to use the loo until he was about 3.9 and one day I told him I wasn't buying any more nappies (in his case, it genuinely was just laziness and loo-aversion, so he cracked it within a couple of days). However, when I was little, I wet the bed until I was seven, and will never forget the shame! - there was nothing I could do about it, I really did try.

Surely people who work with small children should accept that they have accidents, especially when stressed. I am not idealising the past - I remember that when I was in reception class in the early seventies, two or three children went home in the school knickers every day.

Sorry if I seemed nasty. That wasn't my intention.

OP, I hope your little one can feel safe and happy at nursery.

You can't make a child be ready HappyAgainOneDay, they just are when they are. No amount of following a child about with a potty will make a difference to that apart from causing unnecessary stress.

As others have said it's developmental, you were simply lucky.

I think it's just hard for parents whose children have PT early to understand that. They become 'The Piss Whisperer' and think everyone else is just lazy.

That sort of attitude is the cause of humiliation in children who haven't yet got the hang of it, not the parents who are doing their best.

I don't disagree with the posters talking about readiness, it is very relevant to a nursery setting and should inform the attitude of the nursery. But in this case it seems to be a child who is ready - successfully dry at home and in the first few weeks of nursery. She seems to be stressed, which is causing accidents, specifically at nursery. That is really quite different to a child who is just not ready for toilet training at all.

just glad you are not any of my dcs teacher primary.

o yes my 8 year old who really struggles with bowel movements and is under hospital was told by mil that dh and sil were trained by 18 months so he should be too. Helpful? no

I'm a nursery teacher in a school nursery.
About a third of our children are still in nappies or pull ups. I never make a child feel bad for either. Yes it can be a problem when there simply aren't enough staff change a child and be looking after both inside and outside.

OP YANBU, schools used to be able to ask for children to be potty trained but not anymore.
However I do take exception at this comment of yours and has no kids, so I do wonder if that may be part of it. I can't have children, does that mean I can't be a good nursery teacher?

I meant to say, it can be a problem, but it's not the child's problem.

If a large number of children are having accidents most days, or just a couple of children are having numerous accidents in a day it is disruptive to learning, despite what others say. It takes someone away and dealing with the change of clothes isn't as quick and speedy as some would imagine.

Its one less adult to deal with a large number of children (in some cases). If a child has an accident just before home time or during a specific learning time it can be very tricky to deal with indeed due to numbers of adults in a classroom... and then the parents complain that they are late to be let in to collect their children.

My DGC had to be either reminded to go or would need someone with him as he couldn't manage to pull his trousers and pants down far enough to avoid getting them wet. But he was definitely not keen on asking himself for the first few weeks, so every day we had wet clothes. At home it was just easy because he wasn't wearing shoes and would just strip off.

Now he's in the swing of asking he's fine, but he really likes the staff. I think that's the key.

Re training: It might take longer than you'd like but you really ought to do it. Don't wait for them to be 'ready'.
With all due respect (and I'm of the Old School Generation), bollocks.

Waste of everyone's time dangling a non-ready baby/child over a potty. They are dry when they are able to control their bladder. Catching a wee isn't control. It's luck (and clock watching.)

Babies walk, talk, sit up, roll, read, write at different rates, why should toilet readiness be any different. In op case, I think there is something going on with this other worker. She was fine when she is not there, what is this workers behaviour like towards op dd. That is what op needs to get to the bottom of. Vino had a similar experience with a worker who was not nice to her 3 year old dc, she observed her behaviour when she thought vino was not looking. This Nursery assistant was not very nice to a very young child. Op confronted the manager, it never happened again. Could something similar be happening here?

Thanks for the support all. Brief chat with main teacher this morning, mentioning the issue. Main teacher has said she will keep an eye. Let's hope that sorts the problem!

I am outraged.

My dd, no SEN, started school aged 4.5 and had an accident at least once a week through reception. She was potty trained at 2.5 and dry at night almost immediately, but she has always had accidents. She just gets absorbed in what she is doing, and forgets.
We tried lots of things (sticker charts, etc). And she did get better and better so that by the end of reception accidents were rare.

Her teacher and TA were amazing, they said it was quite common and not a problem. The TA used to remind her every playtime/lunchtime to go to the loo. She has a change of clothes in her bag and got herself changed.

I am outraged because the nursery has sent you to doctor etc etc. Totally out of order, she is 3,5 and accidents happen. They need to be proactive about sending her to the loo, reminding her etc.

A couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with the posters who say you have to teach children rather than waiting for them to be ready but not anymore. We spent a miserable month trying to teach dd (then 2.3/4) to use the potty. She just became more and more upset every time she had an accident, kept saying 'but I don't know what to do' when sat on the potty and eventually refused to go near it.

Out of the blue, dd (now 2.7) asked for the potty and to wear big girl pants. Sat herself down and did a wee unprompted. Followed by 3 more and a poo. Over a weekend she only had one accident (en route to the potty).

You can no more 'teach' children to switch their bladder on and off than you can 'teach' them to sleep through the night or eat vegetables or not have tantrums etc. You can incentivise, encourage, inform but you can't make it happen.
No doubt some posters would say I should have persevered with dd crying in a corner and calling herself 'silly'.