... to think school are making a big fuss about not a lot (toilet training)

[PaddingtonFromPeru]

DD 3.5 started school nursery in Sept. She has always struggled a bit with getting to the loo to wee, but was totally dry throughout August.
School policy states children must be toilet trained (which DD is/was). She was dry for the first 1-2 weeks of school and since then has had an accident nearly every day.
I think this may have something to do with her not liking one of the key workers very much, as she often mentions she is scared of her and the key helper started at this time as cover for someone off sick.
School are making a really big think of all the accidents, to the extent that I have had to take DD to the doctors for blood tests (def. not diabetes or a kidney problem) and have now had to get an endocrinologist involved.
To me, although school policy does say they prefer children toilet trained, they should bear in mind it is only week 5 or so of term and try to get to the bottom of the "scared of key worker" problem. AIBU?

Your poor dd.

Find out how this teacher behaves with dd, what she says to dd when she has an accident. Can dd tell you why she does not like this teacher?

If a child is dry at home and not at school the likely reason is anxiety about going to the toilet at school.

That is what you need to tell them. You are not lazy, she is only a baby and not ready. Tgey should not out pressure into you. Do arrange to see the manager and gave a chat with her.

That's disgraceful. Any child can regress a little with toilet training when they are young and in a big, scary environment that's all new to them. And it'll likely be happening more frequently because your poor dd is picking up on their disgusting attitude towards it.

I would consider a strongly worded letter to the nursery manager and take it further if needs be. Imagine sending you to the bloody doctors for such a thing

My dd had been completely dry (day and night) for 6 months when she moved up to the bigger nursery room after turning 3 and did a complete 360 overnight it seemed with her toilet training. It was accident after accident, especially at night. After a week of observations I realised my little dd seemed overly cautious around one particular member of staff. So I started watching her really closely and found that she would completely ignore and exclude my dd the minute she thought my back was turned, making my 3 year old child feel like unwanted crap. I had, ahem, stern words with the nursery manager about her and it was resolved very quickly. But it took quite a while to effectively retrain my dd. It was really upsetting.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you, OP.

I agree with primary

if it is up to three times a day it is totally disruptive for the class and your dd

I have to say that up to three times a day seems more than accidents, but more of a regression.

How awful Vino , treating a young child like that. Good for doing something about it. I suspect similar is happening with tge particular staff and op dd. She is fine when she is not there, him us she treating op dd?

Ronald this us a nursery, not a school! Tgey are nit tiny year 1 and 2, but ore school childrens!

Pre school I meant.

The first 2 years at pre school look very much to the outsider like school with uniforms and a fairly classroom like environment.

It's clear that if every child was wet 3 times a day the nursery teacher and TAs would be doing nothing except changing children all day, so there has to be a reasonable assumption that most children are toilet trained.

However if a child has regressed and is not coping then instead of making unhelpful suggestions they put in an action plan such as regular trips to the toilet with a TA she is happy with. Maybe pull ups in the short term. A gp check up is not unreasonable as urine infections are often a cause of urinary accidents.

Maybe part time for a month or two can be agreed if tiredness is a big factor?

Primary teacher 87 I do hope you retired in 1987 as I would hate you to teach one of my children. I successfully toilet trained two children, both with special needs, before they were 2.5 yrs. Ds3 didn't get it until he was over 3. I tried, my very experienced childminder tried, the nursery tried but he didn't get it until he was ready. It took 1 week and he has never had an accident since.

OP YANBU

There are two different issues going on here. One is a child who was previously secure at toiletting herself and who has now regressed. The other issue is the sheer numbers of children who are entering Nursery (and by this I mean school nursery) who are nowhere near fully toilet-trained. On a recent entry information sheet given to 30 parents of children about to start my school's nursery, around 50% were not secure at the whole process (of asking to go,managing to wee/poo, wiping themselves, flushing and then washing their hands.

I know clam, some 5/6 year okds and over even have orioles doing that, let alone a pre schooler just out of nappies. Ok they have got that tgey need to use the toilet to do wee/poo but still need to perfect the whole signal pants down on the loo, wiping flushing and washing routine that goes with it!

Meant some 5/6 year olds find that difficult let alone a pre schooler

I think preschools that are attached to schools and where the children only attend once they are age 3 do expect children to be toilet trained. They are more of a school environment but with lots of play. Preschools that take children from age 2 expect some children to be in nappies and some to be toilet training so IMO are more set up for helping children in this respect.
If she is not secure in her toilet use maybe you need a different type of preschool for her.
My DD attends a school nursery and has done since Easter. She had a couple of accidents when she first started but has been fine since then. Generally almost all children are toilet trained when they start this preschool apart from the group of children who started this September. Now over half of her class are still in nappies or having repeat accidents. The teaching assistants are having to spend lots of time sorting out toilet mess rather than doing fun and learning things with the children. I really tthink this is unfair on all the children. I do sympathise but also I do think that 3 accidents in a session is too disruptive and unfair on everyone involved including your child. Is this over a full day or just an am or on session? If she is not confident their maybe she needs a different non school environment.

There not their! Sorry also for the typos - tiny tiny keyboard on a tiny phone!

It's absolutely not ok to be getting hung up about a three and a half year old not fully securely toilet trained in a preschool early years setting. It's not a classroom environment, it is absolutely not disruptive for teacher and TAs because it's not a classroom environment, it's part of normal early years care. Day nurseries and preschools are absolutely fine with this and will support emerging toilet training right up until children go to school, they should not be pressuring parents to toilet train early or for any reason connected to staff convenience, and the fact that some school nursery units get stuck on this (and have too many kids to too few staff) reflects the school's lack of 'getting' what early years is about. It's poor provision. They're trying to fit early years children to school expectations, standards and provisions.

I know the advice further up the thread to consider reducing her time at nursery was very well meant, but every child of dds age is entitled to their 15 hours free entitlement no matter what their needs, and changing needs at this age will only be a problem for a setting not really well set up for early years.

OP if you need the support trying looking up 'The right to go' document on Google.

There is obviously something troubling your DD in pre-school (sounds like this member of staff). It isn't the case that she isn't ready or has a medical problem as she is ok at home/was ok before. You need to see the manager and make it their problem to resolve.

I do have a problem with the minimum staffing ratios at this age, I don't think they are suffient. Small children need care as much, if not more so than education. The proposals (now thankfully shelved) to reduce the ratios even more were crazy.

If she is only going part days I'd be tempted to send her in pull-ups. That just side steps the fact school are overreacting and might give her space to not worry about the accidents as she can keep them private. Show her how to use the toilet with pull-ups.

The idea that pull-ups is a step backwards is not true from my experience of a late to train son.

Primary I really feel your post is disgraceful and if I had a small child who had accidents in your class I would be really worried.

My DS1 had a major toileting regression [poo and wee] when he started reception having been completely toilet trained prior to this [with the odd accident].

The school and his reception teacher were not very helpful with this to be honest. They accused DH and I of not having toilet trained DS and made out that he was the only child having accidents [funny then that I would see reception teacher hand wet clothes in a bag to other parents at home time ]

However my sense was that DS was unsettled and anxious in this new unfamiliar environment. Most of his classmates knew each other from the school's nursery and DS had come to this school from another local nursery. He would go into school crying most mornings for about the first six to eight weeks and his toileting accidents occurred at the same time.

Doesn't really take an early childhood degree to work out what is happening but the school and teacher were of the same mind as you primary, that it was not the teacher's responsibility to clean DS up and this was making life difficult for her.

I ended up taking DS to GP to see if there might be anything medically wrong with him. GP was nonplussed at school's attitude and said in his experience of reception age children regressing around toileting was not that unusual... but he referred me to the continence nursing service for more support and advice and I saw this lovely lovely woman who reassured me that DSs behaviour was not unusual for a four year old starting school [and that she actually saw children up to the age of seven where it is not unusual] and that someone from the team would go into the school to see DS in that environment and try to work out if there was a reason he was having these accidents. Apparently children can become fearful of going to the toilet if they associate them with negative feelings, i.e if they once saw a spider in there or it is too draughty, etc.

However, she also said the team would speak with the school and the teachers and offer support around this issue. I could have kissed her as I found it very difficult to speak with the teacher about this issue at this point, the only feedback I was receiving from the school was that DS should be toilet trained and he was the only one having these accidents

Anyway OP, sorry for the essay, but I just wanted to say please don't stress, your DD won't be the only one having accidents at 3.5. By all means get support from your GP and/or a continence nurse as I imagine they will put your mind at rest and may also be able to offer some advice around what to do next.

My neighbour is a reception class teacher. She is surpised at the number of children who aren't toilet trained and each year the percentage is higher. The school employs an assistant whose job is solely to clean up kids and wee and poo off floors, chairs and equipment. That person is busy all day.

Ask your parents how old you were when toilet trained.

Thirty odd years ago children were not allowed to start playgroup unless they were potty trained. The usual age to train was 20 - 24 months.

I'm early 60s. My Mum used to berate me for not holding a potty under my newborns. Her generation used that method because it was easier than washing a pile of shitty nappies by hand in the sink. I choose to do it the 'modern' way and wait until my Dcs were 2, probably because I had a washing machine.
The modern way now is leaving it until three or four.

Of course leaving it later does increase the profits of the nappy manufacturers.

Well, that's great for you paxtecum that you had children who were ready to toilet train.

FWIW I tried to train DS1 around age 2 but he didn't reliably get it [with the odd accident] until he was just over 3.
Again with DS2 I tried to interest him in using the potty/toilet when he was around 2 but he also didn't really seem ready until he was 3 and then he got it pretty quickly.

Yes, disposable nappies do make things easier but I would have been very happy to get DS1 & 2 out of them earlier if it had been possible to do so.

My DM would also say that it was best when children are potty trained around 2 or earlier. She would also say that I was potty trained at age 2. However I remember lots of wet pants and accidents and being humiliated for this as being 'too lazy' to go to the toilet. Not a parenting technique I want to use for my DS tbh. Not suggesting that you were like this paxtecum but I just wonder if all 2 year olds were reliably toilet trained 30 years ago

Well said, pactedum. How I agree with you same age. All this modern thinking simply causes poor children to humiliate themselves in front of their peers. OP and other Mnetters, please toilet train your children early. It might take longer than you'd like but you really ought to do it. Don't wait for them to be 'ready'. You make them ready by teaching and rewarding. Take a pot everywhere with you. Then, by the time they start school, they will have been dry for so long that they will have forgotten how to wet themselves. My two were dry by the time they were both 2 yrs 3mths.