Holiday fines?

[frozen1234]

Hi.

Im after some advice.

We have been on holiday and took our son in september. We paid the fine.

We have another holiday in march and wondered what the process is? Would we get another fine or do they take you to court for the second time you do it. Out of curiosity can you keep having hols each year and paying the fine? Or will they eventually take you to court?

Thanks for any answers on the above questions..

you have to obey the law that relates to state schools and this is one such law.

oF COURSE i didnt choose to have my children around the school rules but the point is saying you chose to have children is ridiculous.

One has children one cant help then that one plans to...holiday with those children within ones means and then suddenly a draconian stupid rule comes in that the 10 days discretion is gone.

Yes I chose to have children and I plan on holidaying with those children.

Laws come in, laws are repealed.

Am I going to sacrifice our family holidays for a rule that will proably be dissolved soon?

NO.

Okay but its not actually a new thing. My DCs senior school virtually never gave permission for absences before the new rules, and certainly wouldn't have for two holidays in one year (I did know the occasional family visit to Australia be authorised, or not fined). Some of you might have had a holiday authorised on one or two occasion's of your child being at the school, but not every year.
The fines also came in before the rule change to tighten up, so they were clearer.

I even have twice taken my children out of school in term time myself, both in primary - once when DH was working away a lot, the other when they changed term dates after we'd booked the flights.

I don't believe there is a human right that children have to go on holiday every year, overseas, with their parents. I do know children in my wealthy area who have never been on holiday with their parents, even in the UK (and I don't think cost was the reason).

mummytime of course their is no human right to go on holiday every year. there is however a human right that gives a right to a family life. it is my family. I, not the government, get to decide what is our family life. this isn't about holidays abroad or holidays every year or whatever. it is about being told "you do it this way because we know best and we are right and you are wrong". Sorry, but I just don't buy this daily fail bullshit. all the time we keep being told to be responsible parents to make the right decisions as parents as we see it. well, Mr Cameron and Mr Gove, my kids headteachers, trust me. Trust me to make the right decision for my children. as for this idea that you choose to have children, you choose to do this job or that job. all those saying this, just wait. because pretty soon a law will come along that will adversely affect you the way this one has affected many other families. one that you wont just suck up and do. I will keep on lobbying and keep on trying because I honestly believe this law is wrong.

this isn't about holidays abroad or holidays every year or whatever. it is about being told "you do it this way because we know best and we are right and you are wrong".

Surely it's not about being dictated to about right and wrong, but about being offered a service (state education) with conditions (attendance, uniform etc).
The state isn't dictating how you educate your DCs. Although it does require parents to make suitable arrangements for their DCs education, there are a wide range of options available to achieve that. The state is offering a service, which parents can choose whether to take up, or not. It's not a bespoke service, though - parents can't adapt and select which aspects they opt into. It's all or nothing.

It's not a 'service' the way a car wash or a restaurant is a service though. Opting out is not that straightforward. It's disingenuous to suggest that it is within the means of every parent to home or privately educate purely so they get to spend a week together every few years.

So far the suggestions on this thread for parents who don't get leave during the school holidays have been

Don't have children
Leave work
Home educate
Privately educate

Is it me, or all these quite dramatic responses to wanting to have the occasional family holiday, which, lets face it, most people do several times during their children's childhoods despite all the 'holidays are not a right'/'we just take day trips' protestations.

I disagree, Mr Sheen - the state education offered is a service just in the same way as NHS treatment is a service. It is provided within restrictions, regulations and limitations and if 'we' as members of the public don't want to comply with those, or consider those unreasonable/inconvenient, then we have other options.

It always intrigues me that the requirement to comply with attendance is so much more contentious than the other restrictions placed on parents who choose to take up the state education service. There isn't the same clamour on social media demanding that schools allow DCs to begin their school day at a time that is convenient to the family. There isn't outrage that most schools have a dress code. There isn't a demand that the service is delivered from a location more convenient to families. Yet, the requirement to attend causes significant angst amongst a significant minority.

Fines have been successful - it is now less socially acceptable than it was in previous generations to take holiday in term time. It's a long term strategy.

I don't think privately educating will help anyway. Whilst holidays can be longer, you still can't just take them out whenever you want and they can just ask you to leave if attendance is poor.

Personally, I think your biggest barrier would be participation - too many parents rely on school as a safe place for their DCs while they do other things for there to be a significant participation percentage. And, it will be a lot easier to penalise the minority than it would be if all parents got involved.

Well, i'm in no position to organize anything, so just a thought. I just think -- there are so many SAHPs, for whom it wouldn't be an inconvenience, let's say an altogether long weekend of "industrial action".

If you don't get any holiday during school holidays - for long stretches of your children's school career; then maybe you should join a union and campaign for better working conditions.
Plenty of employers in all kinds of industries have to and do cope with the fact that a lot of employees want time off in the school holidays. There is October half-term, the less popular week of the Easter vacation. Even a restaurant could get in a temporary chef for Valentine's night. One week in the summer should be manageable too.

Having children out of classrooms at random times throughout the school year does disrupt their education and create extra work for teachers.

wakeycakey45 - you and your partner are obviously in jobs where you can book and take holiday with your kids during school holidays. this isn't about the "requirement to comply with attendance" is it. we comply with attendance. my DC's have never been late. I picked the school, I knew that they had a strict uniform policy. I made a decision. I and every other parent in the country had no consultation on this change to the law. the "service terms and conditions" were changed without debate, consultation or discussion. of course its not a long term strategy. its a knee jerk political reaction to show attendance stats going up whilst actually not tackling the real issue of poor attendance. ask your local LEA about the underlying figures of people with less than 80% attendance. not touched, not dealt with. this is the problem. cutting holidays in term time isn't the solution its a smoke screen. it staggers me how many people just cannot see it as this.

And... Don't forget British school holidays are one of shortest. 6 weeks of summer vs. 2-3 months in other countries. Plus, a lot of people have families abroad.

tiggy

You've been the voice of reason on here, any idea why it changed and people took more time off

More money? Selfish generation? Delay in recognising it was becoming a problem? Heads not being strict enough (or lacking the ability to penalise)

I don't recognise your last paragraph in my children's school but appreciate that all schools are different

Fines should be bigger and more widespread (our county so far hasn't fined anybody) unless there is a good excuse

And I agree with mrsheen if people honestly can't get holidays in school holidays (excluding money as that's a whole different argument) then they need to approach the school under exceptional circumstances, comments like 'you chose to have kids' and 'go private' are very unhelpful (though I'm sure most of those comments were directed at the 'breaking the rules' parents)

It was never a parental right - it was at the discretion of the Head, and lots of heads always refused (especially at secondary).

A lot of places that have longer Summer holidays, have much less the rest of the year. A lot are also shortening the summer vacation - for example a lot of places in the US.

Having a longer summer holiday wouldn't stop some people on here having issues with their employers not allowing them time off in the holidays. It would also be less convenient for those with relatives "down under" as the Christmas vacation would probably be shortened. It would also lead to more tiredness in term time.

Hadn't thought of the state vs private difference, I always went private and they never took issue, but perhaps as long as fees were paid it didn't impact upon them?

I'm certainly by going to change my job just because I get allocated my holiday every year, the cost to retrain and do something else for a start is inhibitive plus, I bloody love my job and the DC won't be at school forever but my job certainly will be.

I guess as some previous narrow minded posters have said I'll just have to go private.

I don't recognise my schools from Tiggys description either. what I do see though are the kids 2 or 3 years ago that missed one day a week, or came in late most days, or fell asleep over lunch, or hadn't done homework because they had been gaming all night still there, still the same people. because it is too hard to deal with this huge social issue it hasn't been. what has happened is a massaging of the figures to show absenteeism down.

Tiggy, if the heads had the power to say no but allowed it then why didn't they say no then. and why are they more likely to use the powers now the legislation has changed than they were before when apparently this power to refuse always existed?

I just don't think in 5+ years time we will all be seeing massively improved literacy and numeracy across the whole population do you? too many governments tackle the easy things instead of adopting the long term strategy to tackle the difficult ones. those on here who think this is a good rule are just colluding with that and consigning still more kids to leaving school not knowing the importance of being in and on time every day, doing their homework and being literate and numerate.

If the heads always had the power then scrap the rule and give them the power with proper sanctions/fines that go to the school not the LEA.

Thanks tiggy

Trouble is even whacking up fines probably won't help

In my case it wouldn't make a difference as it's not due to costs, it's due to where we want to go and exam timetabling. It's literally a one off

Absolutely what people were talking about up thread they said about all the excuses and people always think they are the exception

Having a longer summer holiday wouldn't stop some people on here having issues with their employers not allowing them time off in the holidays. It would also be less convenient for those with relatives "down under" as the Christmas vacation would probably be shortened. It would also lead to more tiredness in term time.

Yes, but it is much more convenient to organize within 2-3 months than just 6 weeks. Much easier on employers as well. There are still 1-2 weeks off every term, and 2weeks of festive season.
Christmas is a different kettle of fish. It is the same date worldwide, it can't be postponed.

tiggytape sorry but you are wrong when you say

"....The HT has no power anymore to authorise a holiday so it doesn't matter whether she secretly agrees with or whether a child has a good attendance record, she cannot give permission for just a holiday. Therefore people don't take offence so much when they are told no because they know it isn't in her power to say yes...."

The legislation says this would not normally be for a holiday not that you cannot ever authorise a holiday.

the head teacher does have the power to authorise a holiday if she/he thinks it is exceptional circumstances. ours is. we have proved it to the heads that our jobs are exceptional circumstances. we have just been given 5 days off in term time. thanks to a dossier of support and copies of letters from Mr Gove where even he says leave can be granted for holidays in exceptional circumstances due to employment. suggest you go back and read the legislation again. Mr Gove is never wrong.

I haven't read the whole thread because I CBA but why do holidays need to be abroad/expensive/in school time? Why are holidays the only time people think they can spend time with their children?

I don't object to parents taking their children out in term time, if that is the only time they can afford a holiday.

However I do object to the 2 weeks in Disney Florida, which the child then comes back to school and boasts to all the other children about.

Mr Sheen - private ed won't help. They have similar rules regarding term time holidays, especially as they generally have more holidays than state schools anyway. They are, ime, more flexible with the rules regarding "exceptional reasons" for things like weddings and special occasions.