Holiday fines?

[frozen1234]

Hi.

Im after some advice.

We have been on holiday and took our son in september. We paid the fine.

We have another holiday in march and wondered what the process is? Would we get another fine or do they take you to court for the second time you do it. Out of curiosity can you keep having hols each year and paying the fine? Or will they eventually take you to court?

Thanks for any answers on the above questions..

For those who are unable to ever take leave during school holidays what do you do for a living just out of curiosity. Where holidays are not set in stone (and these in my experience usually do include school hols i.e. Factory fortnight -last wk july/first wk august) why can employers not offer flexibilty, take turns or whatever? I don't know anyone in this position so forgive me for being naive.

For those who really do never ever have school hols off, is this not personal choice? Like those who can only take school hols like teachers or those who elect to work nights? Could you try and find something else if it bothers you so much? I would like to earn full time wages but work part time to fit around my son. Its personal choice.

• Could you try and find something else if it bothers you so much?

my dh is in a stable job with a wage coming in, wage frozen mind you, business all around us is cutting staff and culling people, first in first out, at the moment my DH is safe.

No he doesnt want to move jobs right now in the this current climate. But Purple its great your industry is offering this flexibilty of choice for you.

And... What about taking weekends away or making the most of the long weekend sometimes crated by inset days. What about one parent taking a trip without the working one? Lots of options to avoid missing school. Camping/city weekends (london/york/anywhere) for example are great!

What does your DH do mouse? I do appreciate that job security is hugely important I really do. It is the inflexibilty of an employer to only allow an employee to take leave outside school holidays that is baffling? Particularly where the business doesnt close for fixed weeks.

I work in an office where everyone's leave is flexible. We are open all the time except bank holidays. There are enpugh of us in our team to share out school hols. We have to have cover. There have been no big issues and I appreciate I am fortunate.

Last year our family didn't take a big family holiday for financial and other reasons. We took weekend breaks and day trips. It was great. It can be done :)

Except Tiggy, our la advice is only saying:

"‘If a child of compulsory school age who is a registered pupil at a school fails to attend regularly at the school, his parent is guilty of an offence’.

But if your child has say one holiday every year, but is otherwise there, then they'd had 97.5% attendance.

If they have two weeks holidays and otherwise 100% attendance, they'd still have 95% attendance.

How does the la prove that a child with 97.5% attendance does not have regular attendance?

I guess what I am asking you is what written evidence have you got of the next steps that will be taken? Is this you surmising or have you got it from somewhere? If so, can you please tell me where!

Just all the documentation I've seen mentions fines for holidays and then 'you could be prosecuted' with a lot of surmising and guesswork on both sides. I haven't actually seen any official documentation that actually states what will happen for repeat offenders.

I'm not being difficult, I would genuinely like to see the documentation / case studies or whatever is it that says repeat offenders will be treated more harshly rather than just pay another fine.

To use your driving analogy, I know a lot of mums see them more like parking fines. It doesn't matter how many times you break the rules, you get the fine and you pay it. End of.

I am curious as to what the official documentation actually says.

Purple, in my job I bid for the leave I would like, but it is not guaranteed and is allocated on a seniority basis (I am v junior). Essentially my employer chooses my holiday for me, so when it comes to the DC being at school if like this year I am unsuccessful in my bids and get all 30 days in term time I will be taking them out of a school for a holiday for a week that I have been given...

DP is a chef. Ironically is a place where lots of people like to holiday, hence weekends and holidays are the busiest times. Jan and Feb are completely dead, except for Valentines Day which is usually in half term. He earns decent money and is good at his job. He is trained for nothing else so, funnily, doesn't want to quit. He works weekends too. Every weekend. I'm public sector, so get 'normal' holidays, but like many other have to fight tooth and nail to get time off in school holidays.

Technically he could pack it all in and retrain as something else (What? What would we live on while he did it?) or we could sell up and move to a non tourist town, away from family and friends and start another business from scratch, where closing in school holidays wouldn't be such a huge loss of income, but is seems a little extreme just to take a few primary school kids away for a week every few years.

Like I said earlier, we've done it twice, and one of those was a wedding abroad.

For those who are unable to ever take leave during school holidays what do you do for a living just out of curiosity.

The tourist/holiday industry, for one! I met a lovely young couple last week - she's a teacher, he works in event hospitality, and they've not managed a holiday together in the 3 years since they left uni as they can't schedule enough consecutive days off together.

Summer school holiday leave is also off limits for many emergency service personnel, as that is their busiest time in many areas.

Agriculture, construction, retail - many have seasonality clauses in their contracts, and school holidays are the busiest times either due to the weather/long days, or the fact that the DCs are off school and so shops/services/attractions are busier! The AA gets loads more calls during school hols than term time, for instance.

My former employer put a block on any annual leave being booked in August 2012 from the day that the Olympics were awarded to London, years earlier!

Purple what do you mean 'it can be done'

You've just stated you can take your leave whenever you like. You can't have weekends away and lovely day trips, let alone a holiday if you are never actually off at the same time as the kids

It can't be done. That's the problem.

I'm cabin crew, I work 365 days a year, in my job bank holidays, Easter, Christmas and new year are just words!! There is no such thing as a 'weekend' flying and being allocated holiday is in my contract.

However, I'm not going to trade in a career I love just so I can go on holiday at the 'right' times! Also, cost of peak season is not a factor as I have staff travel perks it is purely being able to get holiday when I prefer it!

speedbird-

"I'm cabin crew, I work 365 days a year, in my job bank holidays, Easter, Christmas and new year are just words!! There is no such thing as a 'weekend' flying and being allocated holiday is in my contract.

However, I'm not going to trade in a career I love just so I can go on holiday at the 'right' times! Also, cost of peak season is not a factor as I have staff travel perks it is purely being able to get holiday when I prefer it!"

But these are things we have to consider when we choose to have children.

I gave up a good career when I had my children because it was incompatable with motherhood.

My job involved a lot of travel, frequent visits to the States, often at short notice, and usually a few nights away a week staying in a hotel. My OH also has a time hungry job and we have no family support, so it was clear something had to give.

You can't expect the world to support all your life choices.
Having a demanding job is your choice. Having children was your choice.

Bigbluestars - I may be mistaken, but I believe there are caveats for parents who are unable get time off.

It was your choice to give up your 'incompatible with motherhood' job, and it's my choice to keep mine which other than holiday is a fantastic balance for me with my DC. I was always taken out of school for 'holidays' as a child although they were actually work trips for my mother and I always brought work from school (and then some more!) as my mum was very involved in my education. School never had an issue as I was always up to date and had fantastic experiences to share with my classmates.

I'm one of those who thinks that it's no bad thing to experience the world, other cultures, museums and languages forgoing a week of numeracy and literacy. But in my profession I probably am going to say that!

"I'm one of those who thinks that it's no bad thing to experience the world, other cultures, museums and languages forgoing a week of numeracy and literacy."

Oh I agree with that. But I doubt that is the natuire of many holidays.

The parents I see taking their kids on holiday at term time are usually going to a theme park for a week.

I guess when you look at it like that not so good! Our last family holiday was to South Korea! We visited palaces, mountains, the DMZ (demilitarised zone between North as South), and got to dress up in traditional Korean ceremonial gear as well as stuffing ourselves with the most delicious food on the planet opportunities that I think were of great value to all of us and really opened our eyes!

tiggy

I think your analogies are explaining it all beautifully

I don't know if it's been covered here (speed-read the thread) but what about parents who take their dcs out for extended periods abroad? Do schools/the LA pursue them just as they would the parent who tacks a few days onto half term?

Actually we are taking term-time holiday. I agonised over what to do and eventually emailed the school, confessed and said I would accept the punishment. They said it was fine and not to worry!

Thank you Tiggy, that does explain it well, but I'm really sorry that it does not actually answer my question. I appreciate that it has got to be interpreted, but what I am asking is: Is there any official guidance from government concerning when / how local authorities should take it further than just issuing a fine?

What I've got so far is people's interpretations and surmising on both sides. And your response, whilst lovely and clear, is unfortunately just more surmising on what they might do, but without any substantial evidence provided to say that is what they will do.

Has there been a test case yet? What does the government guidance actually say?

I understand the debate perfectly well. But I want to see the actual evidence / guidance / policy on which claims are made (on both sides) before I reach a conclusion.

As it currently stands, I've yet to see any firm evidence on either side to say what will happen next. So I need to know that before I find my position on the issue iyswim.

Again, I'm not being obtuse. I just want to know the facts .

Thank you, Tiggy that's really helpful. Mostly because it is quite different to what my local authority guidance says. Having a quick google, I think the advice does vary and it is not clear.

For example, you state Suffolk's guidance is:
"Parents will not receive more than one Penalty Notice per child in any academic year. [See below for action to be taken if further unauthorised absences 5.7]"

But Newham LA State:
"Local partners have agreed that the maximum number of formal written
warnings that may be issued in a twelve-month period is two. The
parent(s) would be advised, within the Warning letter, that at this stage
only can they make representations to the nominated Senior Local
Authority officer. The maximum number of Penalty Notices that can be
issued in respect of an individual child in a twelve-month period is two."

www.newham.gov.uk/Documents/Education%20and%20learning/SchoolPenaltyNotices.pdf

Northamptonshire also states that:
"No one parent may receive more that two separate Fixed Penalty Notices resulting from a child being present in a public place in respect of the Education and Inspections Act 2006 in any twelve-month period. Fixed Penalty Notices will be issued to each parent of the child concerned. "

www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/en/councilservices/educationandlearning/parents/attend/pages/truancy.aspx

So, given that local authorities can give two penalty notices per 12 months. What happens if you live in Newham or Northamptonshire say and you take an annual holiday? This would keep your child's attendance at 95% so would not necessarily envoke EWO interference (my LA sets the requirement at 85%). If you had an annual june holiday lets say - then surely you'd just get the fine each year? After all, in these counties it clearly states that students can get two per 12 months. An annual holiday would clearly be within this, would it not?

My local authority says nothing about prosecution for holidays. The prosecution pages only refers to those that have less than 85% attendance and are regularly absent.

It all seems very confused, unclear and less from certain where I am sitting!

Sorry, second link was the wrong bit - but can't find the right one now!