Holiday fines?

[frozen1234]

Hi.

Im after some advice.

We have been on holiday and took our son in september. We paid the fine.

We have another holiday in march and wondered what the process is? Would we get another fine or do they take you to court for the second time you do it. Out of curiosity can you keep having hols each year and paying the fine? Or will they eventually take you to court?

Thanks for any answers on the above questions..

You can't expect the world to support all your life choices. Having a demanding job is your choice. Having children was your choice

Another excellent (and very true post) ... and another where you probably won't get any thanks for it!!

Having children was your choice

Don't see why that's relevant (even if we assume it's true - which I'm not sure about).

Choosing to have children in no way equates with choosing to obey rules if you fundamentally disagree with them - especially when those rules came in after you had children in the first place.

If they brought in a rule tomorrow that all children must be dressed in tin foil at all times, would you follow it blythely, saying "well, I did choose to have children".

Load of judgmental nonsense on this thread (and yes, I see the irony in saying that).

No, I'm not asking how much we can get away at all Tiggy. I'm interested in establishing the facts of the case before a conclusion is drawn. I think there is a lot of surmising and misinformation on this thread. For example:

"You'd go to court I think. Where it would be surely aggravated for a repeat offence."

"I asked a legal expert today. She said second time would go to court."

"For parents who continue to ignore the law, the authorities don't just keep issuing fines, they eventually prosecute."

"Out of curiosity can you keep having hols each year and paying the fine?
No not* indefinitely. Eventually you would stand a good chance of being prosecuted"

(*T added)

I just can't find the evidence that taking an annual holiday in term time will lead to an eventual prosecution. It seems most LAs allow two per twelve months. That means you could have two within the same academic year and for it not to lead to prosecution. Incidentally, Wiltshire allow three within a 12 month period.

I have seen lots of info on the web about unauthorised absences leading to fines, but very little from local authorities about it going to prosecutions, unless you were having several in one year. However, people seem to be suggesting that just having one annual holiday a year will eventually lead to prosecution, and I cannot see any evidence for this at all. That's why I am asking for you to provide it. I am happy to shown it, I want to be shown it. Once I have seen it, I can make a balanced decision. So please, do show me that evidence. But if you can't then I really don't think we can make claims like "Eventually you would stand a good chance of being prosecuted" because I really can't see on what basis you are justifying this claim. Apart from one local authority, which seems much stricter than the good half a dozen I've looked at. But even the half a dozen I've looked at only constitutes circumstantial evidence and is not particularly strong.

I just can't find the evidence that taking an annual holiday in term time will lead to an eventual prosecution

The fabulous thing about the law is that it isn't black & white!

A Local Authority has the flexibility, within the law, to change how it enforces fines and prosecutions based on any number of factors.

For instance, in an area with significantly high school abscence, a local authority has employed a dedicated legal advisor and team of temporary EWO to whom most abscences are referred by schools. EWOs meet with all parents whose DCs attendance falls below a relatively high threshold (95%).
A neighbouring LA has a far higher threshold for intervention and a far lighter touch. Neither is wrong - and it may change within the same Local Authority area from year to year.

Breaking the law is breaking the law; if the potential penalty is of concern, don't do it!

"Breaking the law is breaking the law; if the potential penalty is of concern, don't do it!"

But I'm not going to break the law! I work term time only and so have to have my holidays in the school holidays. That's not my point.

My point is that people are saying "there is a good chance" people could be prosecuted for having an annual holiday with what seems to be very little actual evidence to support what this 'good chance' is. They're not claiming that it is a possibility, but rather "the authorities don't just keep issuing fines, they eventually prosecute" which suggests that this is something that is likely to happen. I am merely questioning whether this is true? Or on what basis they have reached this conclusion. A perfectly valid question to ask, I feel.

Although, I do find it interesting that no-one can just point out the guidance instead, they just keep trying to divert the question by somehow suggesting that I am asking this because I want to take my children out on term time holidays - which largely I cannot do!!

Cross post Tiggy.

Choosing to have children in no way equates with choosing to obey rules if you fundamentally disagree with them

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one; some of us believe it's even more important to set a decent example of behaviour once we have children. Even if we get called judgmental for it, it's got to be better than raising yet another generation of kids who think they're somehow above the rules - that's been tried already, with consequences we've all seen only too often

I chose to have my DC before these laws came in, not that I would have been able to change the time I had them.

Laws change all the time, things come in and out of fashion.

the most imp thing here is I know whats best for my DC and my family.

I know I value their education more than anyone else. I know they are doing exceedingly well in school, and I know that the occasionally few days out here and there will not make one jot of difference to their education.

There are other reasons why going on holiday during school holidays isn't always possible.
Ds has complex needs which mean he has around a dozen routine hospital appointments a year. We can choose to some extent which week they are in but we cannot choose which day or time of day they are as that depends on clinic timings. He attends a school 75mins drive from the hospital and 1 hour drive from home. Attending an appointment means in most cases missing a whole day of school or spending 4 1/2 hours in a car so we try to fit appointments into the school holidays. We already have appointments in the next 3 school holidays and don't expect to have any free school holiday weeks until the summer holidays.
We are not planning any holidays at the moment because ds is hard work away from home especially at night but even if we did want to, we don't have anything like 13 weeks to chose from.

some of us believe it's even more important to set a decent example of behaviour once we have children.

"even more" important than what?
Personally, I'd far prefer to try to help my kids learn to be sensible, considerate, kind, to realise the complexity of the world and to treat "rules for rules sake" with a questioning approach.

I'm always totally bemused when people say they want their kids to learn to follow rules in this way. Rules are imperfect, they can't tell us how to live. There are always exceptions. "I was just following orders" is not a valid defence in court for ex-Nazis.

If you choose to enrol your child for state education, you have to obey the law that relates to state schools and this is one such law.

But it's not much of a choice. It's the only option many people can afford. And we all pay for it.

Thank you.

This is where I'm at:

I think if people take an annual term time holiday, then they are at risk of future potential prosecution. That's given, spelled out and there's no doubt that it is a possibility.

But I don't think we can make any claims beyond that. Unless there is some policy or guidance from government which I have not yet seen which states that repeat offenders should have their punishments escalated, then I don't think we are entitled to conclude that it will lead to eventual prosecution.

As you have pointed out, there are many variables and it depends. It will always remain a possibility that people could get prosecuted, but it may also be equally as likely that by taking one holiday a year, parents may just be able to pay the fine each year and continue taking their holidays. We just don't know.

Therefore, I found some of the claims above like:

'"Out of curiosity can you keep having hols each year and paying the fine?
No not* indefinitely. Eventually you would stand a good chance of being prosecuted"

misleading and perhaps a little scaremongering, because actually we don't know there is a good chance it will lead to prosecution. It does all depend.

However, if there is evidence to the contrary, then I am more than happy to have that pointed out, which is why I asked for the evidence / basis of these claims.

I just feel that it would be fairer to say 'we don't know, it is a possibility, but there are no established guidelines as to how / when this would be done at present' rather than intimating something is likely when we do not know that to be true.

However, on the whole I did think most of your posts have been balanced and well reasoned Tiggy. I think you have been quite measured in most of what you have been saying. But on mumsnet as a whole of late, this has been a very emotive topic and there has been a lot of misinformation, scaremongering and sometimes it almost seems like bullying tactics - if you want to take a holiday, then you're a bad mother, irresponsible, don't care about your child's education and so on... Its almost like people are not allowed to ask for the facts to make their own minds up, which I think is a great shame.

We kept ours off for family holidays as this was the only way we could either afford to have one.( caravan in Wales) those children are now adults with degrees and agree those holidays were the happiest days if their childhood.

Out youngest is 15 now so nearly done with the maddness thank god.

Since working in a school reception class and seeing 4 through up the end I wouldn't hesitate in advising anyone to home Ed if they possibly could.

From the endless exams, stress, stupid And petty rules, Ofsted crap
Etc and so glad it's nearly all over.

On this particular point op soon only the rich will be going on holiday and think that's the plan as it keeps the working classes away from those resorts.

Oh yes and dds were sent home at 12.30 last week to prepare for the open evening.

Couldn't make it up.

Yes, we had the NATO fiasco after 6 weeks of school holidays!

During the last week of the summer term we were told that the first week back would have 2 inset days, as well as one finish at 2pm, one start at 11am and only one full day of school! By then everyone had planned their annual leave from work and summer holidays. This would have been known about well in advance of when parents were finally notified. Schools must play their part if they expect parents to accept every rule that they make without question.

Rules are imperfect, they can't tell us how to live

Of course they can't - but they give us a safe framework to live in

I do fully agree that children should be taught to question when something seems unreasonable - as I said before, rules which seem wrong should always be challenged - but when we question/challenge something, occasionally we won't like the answer we're given

For me, that's when it becomes important to accept we won't always be able to have what we want; the alternative is anarchy

I wonder if parents could go on strike and do a mass walkout. Teachers certainly can...

I wonder if parents could go on strike and do a mass walkout. Teachers certainly can...

Of course they can - but, just like with teachers, there would be consequences. Whether that would be a financial penalty (fine), or withdrawal of the school place would remain to be seen.

Personally, I think your biggest barrier would be participation - too many parents rely on school as a safe place for their DCs while they do other things for there to be a significant participation percentage. And, it will be a lot easier to penalise the minority than it would be if all parents got involved.

Teachers do NOT set fines.
Generally schools do not set fines.
The LEA send out the fines, based on information received from schools regarding unauthorised absences.

Many teachers do not agree with the draconian rules some HT have taken over the new rules, set by the Government. Exceptional circumstances should really include some things that some HT decree not included - funerals, weddings, hospital and other medical appointments that cannot be arranged at other times (this would cover NHS orthodontist appointments for example.)

FWIW I really don't see any issue with a primary school aged child missing 1-2 weeks of school for a family holiday if that is the only time they can go. If they are a student with otherwise good attendance who work hard and have supportive parents then they will not miss anything they cannot catch up on.

Important work is never only ever covered once - it will always be revisited at a later date, and most teachers are happy to let parents know what topic are being covered/missed (though do not expect them to actually set or mark work.)

I missed 1-2 weeks every year when growing up, as did my siblings. My dad had factory shut down which, back then, was always in term time. Therefore it was then or never My parents believed that time away from home, as a family, away from the stresses of every day work, was beneficial - I strongly agree. We didn't do big fancy holidays abroad - but we did go away and spend time together. All three of us did well at school, went to university, passed with decent grades and got jobs in our chosen careers. My parents ensured we worked hard, caught up and they supported our education from start to finish - this makes a bigger difference to missing the odd week.

I apoligise if anyone has already said this. The thread is quite long.

What I do not get is that as mentioned several times taking your child out of school is a ''criminal offence''.

OK So I get that [ as is shop lifting a criminal offence as quoted above]

So why if I take my child out of school i may or may not be fined.

Surely it should be the same for everyone if it is a criminal offence.

I would really rather not live in a society where as a teenager/young adult you embark on a career and then you are supposed to make a stark choice between continuing with that career or ever having a holiday with your children, whilst they are still children. We don't live in an economy where many parents can blithely abandon their careers.

I honestly believe that to not have a holiday with one, or both, of your parents between the ages of 4 and 16 (plus the years either side when they are confined by their siblings school years) because they 'made the choice to have a career' is a shitty way to live.

When ds2 was born, ds1 was at school. He will be 19 before dd2 leaves school. If we obey the rules then he will never have a holiday with his dad as a child Yes, I know we chose to have children