to loathe Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories more than UKIP?

[rootypig]

They have let this country down so badly. And now we all have to reap what they've sown.

room not roof lol.

YABU. UKIP is awful. I don't think Cameron's "vote UKIP and you'll get Labour " speech was well judged.

It would be better to adopt the attitude of "
vote Labour if that is what you want; vote Conservative if that is what you want but be sure, returning UKIP mps is not in the interests of this country.

As far as I'm concerned voting for UKIP is as damaging for the good of the country as voting SNP.

Phaedra I'm in Scotland and agree with your last post.

Another agreeing with Phaedra

YAB very fucking U.

HTH.

I think this thread idea was more about the main parties failures and allowing UKIP to even manage to get a foothold. Not because UKIP are in any way not dangerous.

The social impact has been too great and too intimate for people to care about trading partners.

I have seen no evidence for this despite repeated protestations by right wing press with nothing to back up the argument. And I lived in a very deprived part of London for many years with all these terrible immigrats supposedly ruining our lives.

I see plenty of evidence of European companies providing jobs and contributing to the UK economy. Which would not necessarily be a gap plugged by a British company. I fail to understand how the impact on someone's livelihood is so far removed from everyday life.

I have warmed a bit to Ed. I really think he is sincere and honest. He's bright too.

Look don't get me wrong. I don't mind a wonk. I could get past the nerdy demeanour no probs if he had something interesting to say. But he's still almost as right wing as Cameron! I detest the Coalition, but here were some policies that Labour could really have got stuck into. And they haven't. Why? they're embarrassed by their misguided market based policies under Blair? they really believe this horseshit? they all have the same education? whatever the explanation, they are no longer a party that represents working class people.

I think this thread idea was more about the main parties failures and allowing UKIP to even manage to get a foothold. Not because UKIP are in any way not dangerous.

Thanks living I think the issue with Europe and immigration is immigrants are visible, and tangible, and easy to connect with problems, rather than the more nebulous issues that are actually the causes. The impact of the EU on the quality of people's lives is unclear. If it has made people poorer, it's not through immigration, but its devotion to the single market and competition. However, if its stated purpose is the common market, its other pillar is human rights, and it has rolled up its sleeves and waded into countless areas that individual states wouldn't have tackled alone - working time and other worker's rights, discrimination, environmental protections, in all these ways it has helped large corporates by the sleeve and tugged them back.

Phaedra, Conker, Statistically, Guybrush, you have all missed the point in truly spectacular style. RTFT. HTH.

*held large corporates by the sleeve

TDPH.

You're going to have to help me out Conker, that has gone right over my head

iN ANSWER to RTFT.HTH.

That didn't particularly help.

I was responding to your opening post. I don't agree with its premise. If it didn't say what you meant it to say that's the fault of its composition. I despise UKIP.

So you didn't read my second post? Four posts in?

There is a conversation to have here, an important one.

rootypig
I would cheer to the rafters if Labour came out with a truly radical manifesto - but it would make itself unelectable. That's the dilemma every post-war Labour leader in opposition has faced.

I simply don't believe that such a bright bloke has spent all this time NOT thinking about his agenda and how to implement it. It will be as radical as is feasible because he HAS to gain the trust of business and sufficient support in the media in order to be elected.

The Labour leader has a more difficult balancing act of any of the other party leaders.
The Tory leader's balancing act involves avoiding being stabbed in the back from within the party over EU membership but in election terms it's a simple matter of promising low taxes and being tough on this that and the other.
The Labour leader's balancing act is about promising to maintain & improve services in the state sector when this will obviously mean higher taxes - never really a vote winner!
(Clegg & Farage can promise anything at all without a care in the world. All they need to do is gain a handful of seats to bargain with.)

We have to decide very soon between the parties as they are and the leaders as they are. I see no alternative other than to vote Labour warts and all.
If enough people don't do that then we'll have a Tory/UKIP coalition.

We could write a wish-list then of terrific left- wing policies but we'd have waved goodbye to any chance of ever achieving them.

I hope I've said enough by now to have coaxed you back to voting Labour.

it would make itself unelectable

Do you really think so? if that's the case, then we have the government that we deserve. The rewriting of post war history drives me MAD. Why do people not understand that so much of what we have has been achieved by huge programmes of public works, much science and technology included.

People have voted for socialism. Vernon Bogdanor said in a lecture if he could impress upon us one thing, it would be how close Britain came to socialism. Read the manifestos that Attlee was elected under. Read them, and weep.

I don't doubt Ed Miliband is bright. I do doubt that he's a radical. And whoever is writing the speeches he's giving post Clacton is getting it horribly wrong (same goes for Cameron).

I have wrestled with the 'hold your nose and vote Labour' arguments for a long time - but I think I can only vote, in good conscience, for the people I would like to see elected. Labour and I parted ways a while ago, as sad as it makes me. So I vote green.

I would turn back to Labour in a heartbeat, if they would start talking about meaningful work, work that people can be proud of doing, work that you could make a life out of.

I agree rootypig and that's why I vote green too. If there was a left wing labour candidate then I might vote for them. I could never consider voting for someone in labour like Jim Murphy, who was always so right wing even as a student leader- awful people in the Labour Party these days. We're supposed to all like Stella Creasey but she was as wet as a lettuce on Question Time the other week.
I just despair, I really do.

As for the prospect of a con/UKIP coalition- I'd have to emigrate. But with a lib collapse, low turnout, a collapse in labour votes in Scotland- what else can the election outcome be?

I'm not sure about a left ish manifesto from labour being a tragic vote loser. Yes, no doubt it was in 83, but not in 1945. Very different circumstances both times. 1983 was 30 years ago, just after the Falklands, with Foot as leader, but most importantly the defection of the SDP.

Polls consistently show a lot of support for policies such as renationalising the railways- yet which party will do it? None.

Sorry that was rambly but yes, labour have to take the blame for disillusioning the entire nation all the way through the noughties with their PFI, Academies, wars, doublespeak, lining the pockets of the rich, and now we are all reaping the consequences.

What I mean is, the three major parties have created this hideous mess, without which UKIP would never thrive. Each of them has betrayed their purported principles in inimitable fashion.

No I don't agree with this. The 3 major parties are not to blame that narrow minded xenophobes who previously might have voted for them have found a home.

People have voted for socialism. Vernon Bogdanor said in a lecture if he could impress upon us one thing, it would be how close Britain came to socialism.

Do you seriously think that is a vote winner? That Labour party promoting hard line Socialism or spouting the nonsense we get in Scotland from Sheridan or the more extreme Nationalists is electable?

Phaedra who knows if it's a vote winner? It would be nice to have the opportunity to put it to the test though. As it is, I can't see any reason to vote labour other than they are not the Tories

The 3 major parties are not to blame that narrow minded xenophobes who previously might have voted for them have found a home.

The problem is not the very few xenophobes which exist everywhere despite best efforts. The problem is the disenchanted and disillusioned every day person that are signing up to this. For that the parties can, and should, take an awful lot of responsibility. Once they stop fighting among themselves that is.

rooty I too have voted Green for many years. This whole election coming up sees so much up for grabs. I will vote for another party if I have to in my attempt to stem the tide of crazy that seems to be going on.

I also can't figure out whether it is the usual media hoo ha. Either way, I hope it gets people out to vote. The turnout in both by elections did not represent the true picture.

But voting green isn't going to bring about any re-nationalisation because the Green Party will not have any power emanating from the coming election.
Only by voting Labour next May will you be able to preserve any remaining part of the legacy of the post war Labour government.
I'm being realistic. There is no logical alternative. It's only 7 months away.

A Green protest vote is surely a whole lot better than a UKIP one though?

Not really. A green vote won't change the outcome. A UKIP vote might because they are going to gain seats and then dicker for a coalition with the Tories.
It isn't the time for protest votes if you don't want a government that is further right than Thatcher ever could go.

By all means vote green if you think a green can win in your constituency ahead of Tories or UKIP.

But DH voted LD last time as an anti-Tory protest. Look what a LD vote got us.

It's absolutely clear-as-a-bell logic to vote Labour this time if you are at all inclined to the left IMO.

Yes sorry I should have been more specific that if you are in a supposed safe seat and are voting simply because you are in protest at your normal party vote then don't give UKIP the satisfaction if nothing else! Or if one wants to vote but doesn't feel aligned to any party. I think that is increasing common.

I would never have voted labour but I will if it stops a Conservative or UKIP candidate.

And we got in Caroline Lucas at the last election in my constituency :) that was remarkable. I would like to see the Greens having more prominence and don't necessarily buy into a one party with an outright win agenda. If nothing else it makes politics more exciting :)