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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Alzheimer's and hospitals

136 replies

handcream · 04/10/2014 20:16

I need some advice and whether I was unreasonable.

My DM has been admitted to hospital. She was moved 4 times in less than 12 hours but that isn't my concern. On a general ward a lady with severe Alzheimer's was put next to her, the nurses tried to change her, she was incontitent and she tried to bite and kick the three nurses who were dealing with her, she was shouting, swearing and screaming out. She was the same ages as my DM. After about an hour of listening to this and realising that it was nearing bedtime I felt I had to say something.

I asked that one of them be moved. I was fearful for my Mum in the middle of the night with this lady next to her.

Ironically they decided to move Mum anyway and she ended up opposite an elderly lady who rang the alarm bell every 30 mins and opposite a side room where the man insisted on shouting out and screaming when the ward phone rang (and wasn't answered in a timely fashion).

Was I unreasonable to think there must be better way to deal with patients with this horrible illness.

I would also consider that this ward had near enough mixed wards, think of a long corridor with bays of four beds, next to each other. Mum's bay was about 2 feet from the males one.

OP posts:
CMOTDibbler · 04/10/2014 20:23

There should be better provision for patients with dementia in hospitals, and some hospitals may have a geratology ward where if they have medical needs (but not where it requires specialised nursing or equipment) they can receive that in a quieter environment which is more appropriate and where the staff understand their needs.
But beds are v limited even when there is such as ward, and often people get stuck there as a hospital admission is often what triggers the need to go into residential care, with all the organising that requires.

MammaTJ · 04/10/2014 20:23

Straight jackets? Padded rooms? What do you suggest?

Lilithmoon · 04/10/2014 20:25

That could easily have been my mother a few years ago. What would you suggest the solution would be?

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:26

Mamma - so with an elderly parent you would be absolutely fine leaving an 80 plus lady with a Alzheimer's sufferer with a ward understaffed.
.

OP posts:
Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:27

I don't know, a specialist ward?

OP posts:
Doilooklikeatourist · 04/10/2014 20:28

My father has dementia , it is horrific

The NHS does not deal with it well

Lilithmoon · 04/10/2014 20:29

If the ward you experienced was understaffed how do you propose a specialist ward would be funded?

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:31

It's a truly horrible illness. This lady was attacking her nurses, they were clearly used to dealing with it. I asked if I could stay, but here was literally no room around the bed.

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 04/10/2014 20:31

No, you're not. My father had Alzheimer's and though I loved him dearly, he could be quite challenging. He was violent on occasion, and even when not, would have been frightening to people who weren't used to him. It wasn't his fault, it was his illness, but that doesn't mean other people should have to put up with it.

Professional carers should be kind, but they should also care for the other people around too.

The tragedy is that he'd have hated to be seen as that. It wasn't him. In fact, in his lucid moments, he apologised for his behaviour, even cried over it, as much as he could remember it. It's a terrible disease.

Your mum being moved opposite shouters and pests - that happens in hospital, unfortunately. They probably can't help it and as long as she's safe that's as much as can be expected.

I wish her well and hope she gets home soon.

londonrach · 04/10/2014 20:33

Having been a regular visiter to hospitals i see patients with alzheimers take up alot if staff time. Hard on the staff and other patients. However there is limited beds. This lady doesnt deserve being locked up and unless theres a major rethink open wards are the only option at the moment. Just remember that lady is someone's mother, grandmother and its not her but the horrible disease. Its horrible seeing someone you love become someone who doesn't know who you are..

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:33

I don't think its right to have people with mental health issues on a general ward. It wouldn't be an additional ward, it would be one where specialist care can be provided.

OP posts:
pudcat · 04/10/2014 20:33

Sorry but that was my Mum just over a year ago. She had dementia and a severe water infection which made her halucinate and hit out. They made sure my Mum was in a bed with rails so that she could not get out, mind you she couldn't walk anyway. What do you suggest they do? People with dementia and Alzheimers need treatment as well. My mum did go in a single room because she got CDiff in the end, but that was terrible for her state of mind. So I went every day from 11.30am til late so she had company. The nurses do their best.

BookTart · 04/10/2014 20:36

My stepfather had early onset Alzheimers, and was violent with it as you described OP. The only place they could find for him was in a mental health unit, where he was the only patient with the disease and with staff that had no experience of nursing Alzheimers patients. It was truly awful. My mother ended up spending all her time outside work at the unit, looking after him. Sadly, he contracted MRSA there and died of a related illness.

There is nowhere for these poor people to go within the NHS. It is terrible for all concerned that they find themselves on general wards where they get little sympathy and virtually no specialist help. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, and am sad that some people see them as a burden and a nuisance.

KatieKaye · 04/10/2014 20:37

Similar to pudcat and others. It is so horrible for everyone involved.
When DF was on a specialised ward it was so much better, but the difficulty was when he needed to be on a cardiac ward and the staff simply weren't trained to deal with dementia etc. he too ended up in a single room where he just sat and stared at the walls and unsurprisingly his paranoid delusions got a whole lot worse.

ashmts · 04/10/2014 20:38

So all people with mental health issues should be separated? Yes YABU. It would be nice if the NHS could provide ideal care for all but it's just not possible, they do what they can with limited resources. A lot of patients have some degree of dementia, they couldn't all go to a specialist ward. Also if patients are admitted with an acute issue, it's best for them to be on a ward equipped to treat that issue. There are often rehab wards to deal with longer stays.

londonrach · 04/10/2014 20:38

Patients with late alzheimers....you never want to see. When i see a patient i talk about whats happening in the news and explore what im doing, might be cold etc..but the living statues i see....i breaks my heart. I just want to hug these patients, its not fair! Family members please leave some information around like your family member worked in the navy or was an actor as its gives me something to talk about. Something to get a smile out if...

londonrach · 04/10/2014 20:39

Explain not explore

limitedperiodonly · 04/10/2014 20:39

handcream to be fair, sometimes people without mental health issues behave in very strange ways because of illnesses. And even if they do have mental health issues, that doesn't mean they should be locked up.

But I understand that you're worried about your mother.

She's in a safe place now and she's happy-ish, isn't she?

If so, that's good. Keep an eye on it. Hospitals are a difficult place for patients and staff.

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:39

My friend had a father with Alzheimer's, he was in and out of hospital but sadly had to be sectioned, he attacked one of the other patients, he didn't know what he was doing of course but he tipped an elderly man out of his bed and pulled out his drip.

The nurses didn't notice as they were dealing with another patient. That's really where my fear is coming from. My DM wouldn't stand a chance

OP posts:
cricketpitch · 04/10/2014 20:41

It is a problem for all concerned. I feel for the staff on a general ward without the resources and training to deal with it. I feel for the patients those with and without dementia. It needs addressing - seriously, ( and your comments MammaTJ were not helpful - it is a genuine problem.

My DM has dementia and was admitted to medical ward. I did all I could, I really did, but she was lost there and unable to benefit properly from the medical treatment without the necessary dementia support. There should be at least one dementia specialist on the ward. Yes I know there is no money but it will have to be found sooner or later as this problem is getting worse.

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:42

Actually she is just about ok with it. It's me who is worried

OP posts:
ElphabaTheGreen · 04/10/2014 20:43

The problem is, if someone with dementia is admitted to an acute hospital, they're there for a primary medical problem, so they need to be on the ward specialising in whatever's physically wrong with them. You can't have a ward just for patients with dementia as you might have a cardiac patient, next to a renal patient, next to a stroke patient, each one of those requiring different treatments and nursing care. You would have to have some pretty exceptionally qualified and experienced nurses who know how to manage dementia plus fluid balancing for renal patients, dementia plus complex cardiac monitoring for cardiac, dementia plus neuro-specialist handling and neuro obs for a stroke patient...do you see the dilemma?

There are dementia-specific wards in some hospitals, but that is for patients whose primary reason for admission is dementia, and they usually can't be put on those wards until all possible medical causes for confusion or delirium have been treated or ruled out.

It's a shitty catch-22. No, the NHS can't cope with it, but I'm not sure there are many medical models that can, TBH.

PastorOfMuppets · 04/10/2014 20:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 20:44

I agree it is a growing problem. It's only being in the hospital for the last few days That I have really seen the extent of it and Mamma of course I don't expect them to be in padded cells.

OP posts:
WooWooOwl · 04/10/2014 20:45

YANBU. The care should be significantly better for everyone concerned. I'm sure the staff were doing everything they could, they just don't have access to the resources they need to be able to do the best possible job.

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