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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Alzheimer's and hospitals

136 replies

handcream · 04/10/2014 20:16

I need some advice and whether I was unreasonable.

My DM has been admitted to hospital. She was moved 4 times in less than 12 hours but that isn't my concern. On a general ward a lady with severe Alzheimer's was put next to her, the nurses tried to change her, she was incontitent and she tried to bite and kick the three nurses who were dealing with her, she was shouting, swearing and screaming out. She was the same ages as my DM. After about an hour of listening to this and realising that it was nearing bedtime I felt I had to say something.

I asked that one of them be moved. I was fearful for my Mum in the middle of the night with this lady next to her.

Ironically they decided to move Mum anyway and she ended up opposite an elderly lady who rang the alarm bell every 30 mins and opposite a side room where the man insisted on shouting out and screaming when the ward phone rang (and wasn't answered in a timely fashion).

Was I unreasonable to think there must be better way to deal with patients with this horrible illness.

I would also consider that this ward had near enough mixed wards, think of a long corridor with bays of four beds, next to each other. Mum's bay was about 2 feet from the males one.

OP posts:
x2boys · 04/10/2014 22:15

I,m a mental health nurse I worked in dementia care for six years but I a nd my colleagues are not trained in general nursing so if a patient had medical or surgical needs they had to be moved to a general ward .

BuggersMuddle · 04/10/2014 22:17

It's bloody hard. I am a young, fit woman, but when I was in hospital with pneumonia I was put in a room with an extremely elderly woman with dementia. After she horrified the other pensioners in the room (I hope you all die and the rivers run with the blood of your children), she decided to start pinching my stuff. I moved most of it, but when she tried to grab my dressing-gown she slapped me about the face and then shit the floor. I had to wander out to get nurses as the other people in the ward were too ill.

Yes, of course I felt sorry for her and her family. No I didn't want to deal with it whilst ill. It's bloody difficult. For everyone's benefit she needed specialist care, but she was whacked on a respiratory ward. She didn't even have a respiratory problem - that was where the space was. Ironically I shouldn't have been whacked in there either because umm bacterial pneumonia, people with COPD....

x2boys · 04/10/2014 22:19

Regarding social care funding/nursing funding if a patient with dementia has ever been treated in hospital under a section three of the mental health act regardless of what money or property they have they are deemed eligible for nursing care so their care in a nursing home will be Paid for .

Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 22:20

I was told by a friendly nurse a few yrs ago - don't leave your relatives on their own, expect to help them fed themselves and take them to the bathroom. Get them back home as son as possible, the NHS just cannot provide the care anymore.

OP posts:
Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 22:23

Now I am worried. Too many stories about Alzheimer's sufferers kicking off, of course it's not their fault, but really would you like this to happen to your parent or relative. Somehow I don't think so.

OP posts:
Original poster
handcream · 04/10/2014 22:25

If she is still there tomorrow I am going to pay for a private room. It's just not worth taking the risk, my mum doesn't need all of this.

OP posts:
Draughts · 04/10/2014 22:31

It's an incredibly sad situation & of course your mother is your primary concern. I defy anybody not to be thinking of their own at a time like this.

I would say however that the patients with Alzheimer's or any other condition where their understanding is impaired are generally far, far more vulnerable than those around them.
It's a very worrying situation & solutions do need to be found as it is only going to get worse. Goodness knows what the solutions are though.

KatieKaye · 04/10/2014 22:36

Well that just isn't possible for a lot of people, handcream. In fact, it was totally impossible for DF to go home as it would not have been safe for DM as hecould have attacked her because he had paranoid delusions.

So please think twice before saying things like that. Not everyone is able to take their relatives home - they might not have room and most people have to go out to work which kind of negates the whole thing.

Is it worse for the patient who has to witness a person with dementia or the dementia sufferer, who is not receiving the specialised treatment they need?

I don't know. Both are pretty miserable.

ILovePud · 04/10/2014 22:47

I don't think handcream was saying that people should take their relatives home, I think she was reflecting on the sad state of many parts of the NHS where nurses are acknowledging that they are just too overstretched to provide basic care.

iniquity · 04/10/2014 22:58

I'm a student nurse so have some idea of the issues. The NHS is chronically underfunded and in a huge deficit. It cannot handle the increasing aging population. Hospitals are left to deal with the elderly population and can't really cope. If we want a better NHS we will need to pay more taxes.
As for well off pensioners not paying for nursing home care. Sadly I think the NHS would be completely crippled if it had to pay for that as well.

PastorOfMuppets · 04/10/2014 23:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

knewnana · 04/10/2014 23:03

Handcream - yanbu to want your DMs hospital stay to be as un-stressful as it can be. It may not be realistic, but it's not unreasonable. I hope she is soon well enough to leave.

Unlike other brain traumas, Alzheimers is not seen as a medical need and the NHS won't pick up the tab.

My DM has paid contributions and taxes all her working life (and continues to pay tax on her dwindling savings and pension); she was diagnosed with Alzheimers two years ago which has progressed rapidly.

She had a very impoverished childhood and grew up with a horror of poverty, so from the minute she started working chose to save. Now her savings are being used to fund her care home fees and her flat sold which should cover another two years of fees.

What is really unfair, imo, is that the fees of self-funders are 50% more than the local authority chooses to pay for their residents. So in effect, her "saving for a rainy day" means that she and other's like her are subsidising local authority residents such as my SIL, who made the deliberate decision to spend her early retirement and what savings she had on long holidays in the sun to ensure that she was under the limit to have to pay for her care herself.

iniquity · 04/10/2014 23:03

Also I do wonder how other patients and relatives seem to know what health conditions these althzeimer patients are or not suffering from. Surely that's private?

Annarose2014 · 04/10/2014 23:06

I'm a nurse, and sorry, but if you are admitted onto a general medical ward the chances are high you will be in the same room as someone with Alzheimers.

There are no special medical wards for people with dementia or Alzheimers. If they have a medical problem they go in with everyone else.

It would be difficult to do in reality, tbh. Whilst some people have obviously had Alzheimers for a long time, other people who are distressed/lashing out may not have been diagnosed just yet - though they most likely will be on that admission. They may have been admitted for "increased confusion" but that may come from a UTI, not Alzheimers. If there is a suspicion they will be refered for assessment. So even if there was an "Alzheimers/dementia" ward, there are distressed or agressive people who would not fit the criteria. Perhaps their CT Brain will be totally normal and its just ravings from infection.

Often there are "social" patients (alcoholics/drug users) who are admitted for medical reasons (like leg ulcers/renal failure/jaundice etc) who would be extremely agressive to staff. Again - there are no special wards where they are segregated.

It is extremely distressing for other patients. And it is very very hard on us nurses. We get the abuse from the disruptive patients and then the distress from the other patients. Stressful, to say the least. But its hard to see what alternative is practical.

grovel · 04/10/2014 23:19

Annarose2014, great post. Thank you.

Darkesteyes · 05/10/2014 00:39

AnnaRose Thanks

When DH and i were visiting his aunt in hospital there was a lady with Alzheimers in the bed next to hers.

She began saying "oh ive missed you. I never thought you would survive all the fighting. Do you want me to take my clothes off."

And then she began to take her clothes off In her mind she had gone back in time and thought she was with her husband who had come home from the war.

It is one of the saddest things ive ever seen and im not ashamed to say that i did well up Sad

And nurses must witness this amongst other things every shift. I think you do a fantastic job against the odds and with minimal funding Thanks

Rafflesway · 05/10/2014 00:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wowthishurtsalot · 05/10/2014 06:45

I'm currently in majors in a & e (don't ask) and one of the people in a bay has dementia, she is incredibly vocal but thankfully her carers are amazing - I want care like that when I'm old.

She is seriously disruptive, came in for a fall and is heavily bruised but otherwise fine and they are waiting on a uti test to give her the all clear and send her home

It is unbelievably scary for me right now because she keeps launching herself out of bed towards other patients.

I'm being moved to a side room due to the nature of what's wrong so least I can get some peace

It must be terrifying being prodded and poked and not having a clue what's going on, however, a&e isn't for her she's better off being managed in the community imho and experience.

Bless her she's beautiful too and I am sitting here passing the time by making up a life story for her Grin

Original poster
handcream · 05/10/2014 17:43

It interesting that some on this thread seem to think the state will pick up the costs of everything. Certainly if I had the money, I wouldn't expect the 'state' to pick up a bill I could feasibly pay for myself. And the person who thinks the NHS should cut their mother's toenails - why can't they do it themselves, why is it always someone else who pays?

I didn't mean that Alzheimer's families should take them home! I was actually saying that we ALL need to take responsibility for our relatives care, not to expect the good old NHS to do it all, it is not going to get any better.

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KatieKaye · 05/10/2014 17:51

She can't cut her own toenails! And has been in hospital for nearly four weeks. Her skin is so frGile she has already cut herself badly with her toenails. It is a medical need.
What is so hard to understand Bout that?
Just because you could afford to pay for a private room do not presume that others are similarly blessed.
Most of us have to work. I'm out of the house for 13 hours a day so obviously I cannot look after my mother.
You seem to live a very privileged life. Yes, I do expect the NHS to care properly for my mother. That is the whole point of it.
If your only contact with dementia is being inconvenienced by those suffering from it then count your lucky stars.

Original poster
handcream · 05/10/2014 17:55

Katie, I don't mean her I mean you doing it!

What makes you think I don't work??

OP posts:
Original poster
handcream · 05/10/2014 18:01

The NHS is going to have to be reduced down in some ways.

I am sorry but I believe that when the time comes if I have savings they should be used for care that is no longer provided by the state. Of course I could blow all the money on cruises and flashy cars or demand that my estate be left to the children but that isn't real life is it?

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MyFairyKing · 05/10/2014 18:07

handcream Many people with dementia need specialist care. I assume that given your ignorant comments about families 'taking them home', you have zero idea of what caring for a person with dementia actually entails.

Some very borderline offensive comments here. People who are disruptive for any reason beyond their control (dementia, brain injury, LDs etc) equally deserve to be in hospital receiving treatment. Some illnesses and injuries cannot be managed in the community, is is that hard to understand?!

Doilooklikeatourist · 05/10/2014 18:11

My father has dementia and is now in a nursing home ( paid for with his pension and the disability benefits he is entitled to )
Even though it's a nursing home , he still ends up in hospital every couple of months as he gets a UTI

Last Sunday , he became unwell , the nurses phoned for a GP to visit , this was refused so he ended up being taken to hospital by ambulance .
He spent 2 nights in the critical care unit before he went back to the nursing home by ambulance .

This seems to be a terrible waste of resources

He doesn't know what's going on , he can't walk or get himself out of bed , he is incontinent and helpless

Sometimes he shouts , sometimes he's awake all night babbling away

He shoudn't be in hospital , but he can't help it

pudcat · 05/10/2014 18:20

Last Sunday , he became unwell , the nurses phoned for a GP to visit , this was refused so he ended up being taken to hospital by ambulance .

Doilook - that's what used to happen to my Mum until her last home. The doctors for that home must have understood more about UTIs because they would authorise a prescription for antibiotics straightaway, which kept Mum out of hospital. Her previous home - even if the doctor came out he sent her to hospital.