I don't understand 'unschooling'? Can someone/ anyone explain why this is good for a child?

[TalkingPoint]

I get the concept of home educating and fully understand why someone may choose to home school. It is a decision I have even considered taking myself - but the concept of 'extreme' 'unschooling' where the child has no boundaries put in place seems to divert completely away from the responsibilities of parents. I don't under how this can be considered constructive? Is there anyone who can explain it to me, I see examples on a forum I use of children never having a bedtime and being up till 1am, never having to take regard of any rules and all the learning being completely decided by the child. I get why this may fun but I do struggle to see how these children will grow up in the social structures of the world as it is. I don't agree with all the structures we have in place but until some sort of revolution, if we want children to succeed/ function in the world they need to understand these structures at least to some extent. there is also a very good chance I just don't get it, so happy to be educated?!

I think you need to be true to yourself- don't try and do things that don't work for you because you think you should- children suss you out pretty quickly!
Most of the time it will work for you if you believe in it.

Most education is observing- children do as you do. You are talking, working etc ample time outside 9-3

Personally I was relieved that someone else tackled the nitty gritty like use of apostrophes etc and left me with the fun things and practical applications. We are all different.

We did also get led off on interesting tangents that we would never have discovered on our own.

I chose unschooling for DS for about 18 months. He was so traumatized by his experiences at school that anything that reminded him of a school environment freaked him out. I decided that if he needed a year in his room reading Marvel comics to decompress, that's what he needed.

I'm not going to say he's 100% happy now, or that he's some kind of high flyer, but I am certain he's in a better state of mind than he would be if I'd made him stay at school. He is doing something that suits him very well for now, and most importantly he's not talking about suicide anymore.

And that is truly unschooling- you could at least explain the prefix to children in a logical way.

I'm following this thread with real interest. I'm a primary head and our whole philosophy is based on something FireSquirrel wrote in support of HE:

My hopes for my children are that they are happy, that they have good self esteem, that they feel confident and able to make decisions and to problem solve, that they are self motivated and that they have a natural thirst and passion and joy for whatever they do

So maybe some schools offer something that's inbetween HE and traditional schools, as we do.

MushroomSoup - I think it's brill that your school focuses on the wellbeing of the child :) I think all schools do, to one degree or another. I'm not for a moment saying that all that schools care about is exam results and OFSTED reports rather than the wellbeing of the child, not for a moment, but I do think that in a big school, however well meaning and however many safeguards are put in place, children can and do get swallowed up, and it happens far too often.

Take bullying for instance, there's only so much the school can do to resolve it and often intervention by the school makes things worse for the child concerned rather than better. Sometimes the school is oblivious to serious bullying when it's right under their nose. Bullied children aren't going to be in the right emotional headspace to be able to learn effectively, and I know the bullying I suffered at school has affected my whole life. You can move schools (I did), but bullying often follows you and being a newbie in a school halfway through the year comes with it's own set of problems.

And the same applies to classroom learning - lots of schools have brilliant schemes and provisions in place to cater for children who are falling behind their classmates, or those who are ahead of their peers, but again, there's only so much one teacher or one teaching assistant can do in a class of 20-30 children, only so much individual attention which can be given to one child, and it usually isn't enough.

Home ed or unschooling is often criticised for 'sheltering' children from things like bullying, which, bizarrely, is seen almost as a right of passage for young children, or accused of not exposing children to the challenges they may face in the 'real world'. I don't believe i'm sheltering my child - she still falls out with her friends sometimes, she still goes through struggles and difficulties, and all the normal childhood stresses and hormones etc, but if I can protect her from UNNECESSARY trauma (and I do consider bullying unnecessary, it's not 'character building', it's damaging), then I certainly will. Home ed isn't some sort of artificial bubble where my child is sheltered from real life, home ed IS real life, it's learning through living. It doesn't shelter her from problems but it does mean we can tackle problems head on and resolve them in the best way possible, and that our options aren't as limited as they often are in schools.

I'm not doubting that qualifications have their place and are useful, but mental and emotional wellbeing is as important, no, more important than qualifications. Qualifications can be gained at any point in life, but emotional trauma is something which can affect you for your whole life. The main thing I want for my child is emotional stability - good self esteem and self confidence, and I believe that in many ways, academic 'success' will be a natural consequence of that.

I disagree that all children would get bored of my dh's previous lifestyle that I used as an example, though. He did this non-stop for the 6 week summer holidays as a child and if you last 6 weeks without feeling bored of it then I'm sure you could continue indefinitely. Yes he learnt some coding etc etc, as did I and most children born 90s+ but I'd never let our dc spend huge amounts of time on the computer like that - to me it has been a largely wasted 6 weeks simply playing a game and certain areas of his life have suffered because of it. I would also say that both children and adults can find games very addictive which I feel could easily impact a child or adult making the healthy decision that is best for them - to play moderately.

Perhaps personality trait was the wrong phrase to use, I understand the encouragement side but feel some children need much firmer boundaries and guidance to help them make the right choices in life.

Unschooling and radical unschooling are very unique approaches to raising children. Maybe not for the in confident, however evidence and research clearly show these approaches are very successful . Given we have the unhappiest teenagers in Europe and under 50% achieve 5 A-C's at GCSE after 13 years in school it is small wonder some patents decide to do something very different with their children!

I think the problem is the phrase all children- when there is no such thing, they are all individuals. One child's ideal upbringing is another child's nightmare upbringing.
Some children will get bored with hours on the computer and do something constructive away from it, others won't.

My main criticism is that those who give the child the unlimited choice have their own agenda and they have a right choice in mind. I am a straightforward person and like people to say what they mean. If they know that vegetables are good for you and sweets are terrible for the teeth then provide a diet that takes this into account- not let you flounder around eating the wrong thing so that finally they decide for themselves to do it your way and you can pat yourself in the back that your manipulation worked!

Going back to Greengrow and her Amazon Indian tribe - I actually knew a nutty mother like that ( probably read the book) and it produced 3 very timid children who were very apprehensive about doing anything- hardly surprising if you can't totally rely on your own parents protecting you from danger at a young age! Better to regard nature and the animal kingdom where parents protect the young and teach them about the world and how to deal with it as they get older.

The best way is to wait and see what your child is like- and they may be nothing like you! Support the child you have rather than try and make them into the one you want- remembering there is no such thing as all babies or all children in the same way as there is no such thing as all adults.
At least mine started early- my midwife said all babies like being swaddled as she wrapped him tightly in a blanket- not mine- he hated it and I thought 'Good for you' as he fought to get his arms free!

Also the more who do unschooling the less competition my children will face when they graduate for the best paid jobs - so bring it on....

However my more serious point is that half of children don't get decent GCSEs anyway so is not a huge risk if you do something with results in their not getting GCSEs etc as had they been at school they had a 50% chance of messing it up anyway.

Also it's a freedom issue - I would give more powers to parents than they now have to make decisions about their children even if in some cases that risks their lives more as they are the children of those parents. In other words I put higher than most people the rights of the parent to decide what is right for the child. The opposite extreme would be communist states which took children form parents to live communally or ensured every child was identically raised or sought to do so.

I do support our current system that if you home school you must provide some education. However I was very pleased Summerhill won their court action a good few years ago.news.bbc.co.uk/local/suffolk/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8743000/8743801.stm

I personally think boarding school damages many children but despite that I want parents to have the freedom to choose that course as I put that parental freedom above the possible damage to the child. I am sure my local comp (34% good GCSEs) is hardly benefiting most of those children but I am happy to leave parents free to use it. What I don't like is the state funding lies and sexism in education which is essentially all religious state schools. If you want to do religion put that down to parents to do themselves at home or in their own private religious schools. No one will support that as even Cameron and Gove use state religious schools for their children and Blair did in his time.

So what is best for your child is up to you do decide. It might mean physical chastisement and strict rules or something in the middle ground (I have never hit a child and think it's wrong) which is probably where most of us are where children have bed times are made to practise the piano, do their homework, learn their tables etc or some kind of more total freedom.

Most parents prefer to know the young children will be asleep by XYZ time so that from 8[pm every night they know they have 2 hours child free. We certainly liked that and it disappears when you have teenagers. At the teenager phase which I'm back in now things are different again but I don't think the thread is really about that stage. We still have a 10pm bed time in school term time here except at weekend and that works fine. What is interesting is there is never any trouble over it. I just seem currently to have very easy teenagers. What I think helps most of all is how you are - children mirror adults. If you drink a lot and are a bit lazy and don't do much they are likely to be like that. If you work hard they probably will. They tend to go more by how we are than what we say. Above all i think ensuring the home is happy works best, relax, smile, think about the good things and be happy and optimistic.

I didn't say all children would get bored, though. I said most children. And the timescale given by others about how long it took for their DC to get bored of TV/video games was more like months than weeks. Also I talked about lots of things that could happen if a child spent a long time on one activity (in terms of what parents could do to get to the bottom of this or encourage a mixture of activities or how the activity could be somethin positive). Out of interest would it worry you so much if a child spent all day every day reading? I would guess not because people generally think of reading as a positive, constructive activity whereas video games are "worthless". With the unschooling theory, no activity is worthless. (In fact there are leagues and tournaments of e-sports these days where people literally play video games for a living.)

TBH if I had a child who ONLY played video games, didn't interact with real people, never washed, stayed up to the point that they were permanently exhausted, I'd be concerned and think they were trying to avoid or escape from something in much the same way that people use alcohol or drugs or other obsessive behaviours to escape.

I disagree that parents who give unlimited choice have an agenda - probably some do, yes, but not all. The idea about unlimited choice is, to its logical conclusion, also the idea that your children are allowed to have different value systems and make different choices to the ones you would make. I do think that as the adult you have a responsibility to enforce/override certain things - the (one) family I know of who follow this actual idea really don't have an agenda, and see most even "gentle" parenting methods as manipulation but they provide healthy and/or home made food and don't keep junk food in the house. Stuff like that, nutrition, medication, preventative healthcare (teeth brushing etc) where the outcome isn't immediate and can't always be understood by younger children.

As far as I am concerned I had at least 33 yrs life experience by the time my eldest had only 2 yrs and as a responsible adult I used it and didn't place him as an equal able to make sensible choices. Teeth were cleaned, it was routine so not a bother, but teeth would be cleaned whatever, it was not negotiable. 'You will thank me when you are older' was my usual saying- which of course they would.
I had an agenda- to produce independent, emotionally mature, happy, caring adults. I brought them up my way - what they then choose is their affair. I can never understand people on MN getting so upset if their children believe in God when they are atheists or eat meat when they are vegetarian- by that stage they make up their own mind and I can't see why it matters- they are not you.
It is one of the reasons I like school, it brings them into contact with different views, lifestyles, backgrounds etc -
I wouldn't want them reading all day, although that is better than computer games as at least it uses their own imagination.
Moderation in all things.

We don't even know if it is most children- there hasn't been a large enough sample to test. Mine would never have got the chance to have unlimited computer time - unlimited junk food etc! Very few go to that extreme.

I am definitely more on the side of adults are often wrong and I have learned as much from my 5 children as they have from me, school of thought. A lot of parents think they are God and always right. I would not like to live with a parent like that. If my children want to live in a monastery, jungle, buy a bar in Costa Rica or like the older 2 be City lawyers that's entirely up to them. I genuinely don't want to make them what they aren't. However I want them to have choices and having no exam results tends to limit choice and having no money can limit choice (although it can also in some respect mean you have more choice as nothing to lose). So I want them to make informed choices.

Adults are often wrong- none more so than parents. I often get it wrong but at least it is only things that give my children a good laugh now!
It is the reason I go with 'it takes a village..........' - not all of it under my supervision.

Absolutely. let your husband, wider family and if you work those who provide childcare have huge influence over your children as they benefit so very much from it. And never forget Larkin:

"They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself."

We borrow children for a short period and are lucky to have them in our presence. The all supreme mother who rules with a rod of iron has always seemed abhorrent to me. Let children be.

My favourite, which I try to live by is:

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

Yes, I love quoting that one too as it represents how i feel about children - that we live together and I am lucky to have them and I am not here to impose myself on them, more to observe them. I suspect people just have different personalities. As long as the children are loved and are in a happy home whatever your style they will do fine.

I was watching some film from 25 years ago (I had all the VHS tapes put on a hard drive of the home movies) and seeing myself then with the youngest children. Apart from the shock of fashions 25 year ago (!) I see how calm and non interventionist I am. I let them be a lot. I still do that with the teenagers but it is not everyone's way. I am glad we live in a country where we can be different from each other in bringing up our children without being locked up.