I don't understand 'unschooling'? Can someone/ anyone explain why this is good for a child?

[TalkingPoint]

I get the concept of home educating and fully understand why someone may choose to home school. It is a decision I have even considered taking myself - but the concept of 'extreme' 'unschooling' where the child has no boundaries put in place seems to divert completely away from the responsibilities of parents. I don't under how this can be considered constructive? Is there anyone who can explain it to me, I see examples on a forum I use of children never having a bedtime and being up till 1am, never having to take regard of any rules and all the learning being completely decided by the child. I get why this may fun but I do struggle to see how these children will grow up in the social structures of the world as it is. I don't agree with all the structures we have in place but until some sort of revolution, if we want children to succeed/ function in the world they need to understand these structures at least to some extent. there is also a very good chance I just don't get it, so happy to be educated?!

One thing I would love (and I look forwards to when I retire ) is being able to go to sleep and wake up when I'm tired and when I naturally wake, rather than sticking to a schedule. I'm a night owl but if I don't force myself to go to bed at 10ish I find it hard to get up the next day, and I often feel tired. I also don't sleep very well, but I sleep fabulously if I fall asleep by accident or if I'm left to it. But I can't go to bed at 3am and wake up at 2pm, the world doesn't work like that.

That's all very well, but often two parents need to work to paye the gas bill and put food on the table.
To be told it's all a matter of budgeting is totally unrealistic for many families- and one of the attitudes as to why home educators are seen as middle class. We can all save electricity by having lunch round the AGA.

There are so many good resources online now that surely money should be becoming less of an issue. And there is a lot you can learn about the world when you don't have money as opposed to being able to fly to Africa for an educational trip. (extreme example). There's a lot of history, geography, sociology, religious education, to be found in your local area. And remember that education is not restricted to childhood. They can always do the more expensive things when they are older.

The lack of income is the biggie really. Totally impossible for most working poor unless you are extremely lucky with the support network, although it's possible to be creative, working from home, splitting shifts, etc. For single parents it's out of reach for most again without that rare support network.

It should be more accessible to parents as an option.

It didn't work like that once the children chose to go to college...then as I said they chose to get themselves up (I didn't call them or nag) get ready, organised, get to college on time with all assignments done.
That usually meant taking themselves off to bed early enough to get enough sleep. But they understood that, it's not rocket science, they understood.

But before they took themselves off to college, they went to bed when they chose, going early if there was something on the next day that they wanted to go to-a workshop they were interested in or whatever, or going later if they were busy doing something interesting.

It's what I do as an adult, I self regulate, they did the same

We did home ed for two years and they were the best two years in the last 13 and both children agree. We had so much fun as a family and I found it rewarding too.

I think that allowing the child control over their life, removing arbitrary barriers and rules actually requires far more parental input. It requires discussion and lots of it, encouragement, argument (of the right kind) negotiation and sometimes compromise. It is never acceptable to say "do as I say" and not to be able to justify why. Education and growing up then becomes a partnership with the child rather than a situation where they lack power.

Okay.
You can go on believing that home educators are well off, eating lunch around an aga.
It's not my long experience as a home educator though.
We are used to being very creative and we have a cracking community of home educators.

I wish everyone got the chance to educate their children in the way they would love to.

It is jargon. You can't 'unschool' a child who has never been to school. I like plain English. Why they have to mention school if they are at home beats me!
(However I hate all the jargon terms like 'wearing your baby' as if you are treating them like an accessory, or BLW when the mother houses what and when the eat)

Sorry chooses not houses!

So true Mini. I find the same - I try to be more like this with discipline related stuff but it takes so much more input. It's exhausting actually and I'm shit at keeping up with it but I believe in it so much that I can't bring myself to be more authoritarian, because I said so, kind of thing. So stuck in a crappy middle ground where I try to be better at the way I feel is best but there isn't the foundation of that always being the case so our home isn't always harmonious. :(

The only problem I have is that they're not setting them up for success in the job force. You need to learn how to do menial jobs you don't like because that's what you'll be doing as an entry level in any career. Hell, I still get tedious work even with years experience (it pays well mind you, but not my passion iykwim). Doing what you love is great if you can, but you can't learn grit and good work ethic by doing things when you're good and ready.

"We are used to being very creative " you see I find that quite rude.

It's nothing to do with being "quite creative". Often both parents have to work just to pay for the basics in life. Are those "uncreative" types doing something wrong?

I guess we can all wish as much as we like Home schooling has the capacity to raise radicals and non-conformists and actually that is one of its merits. For this reason alone, no government is ever going to support or encourage more people choosing HEd.

bertie

if it was more accessible than it is then it would become regulated as more people would be choosing it, then it defeats the object.
I don't want people suggesting how and what dd learns and for the those who radically unschool, you couldn't regulate.

I don't have an income apart from tc and cb and don't have family to help. I am lucky that dh is around a lot and helps dd when she needs help and to give me a break.

We don't have high outgoings though and have no luxuries to speak of. DD has tutors for music and languages but these are her curriculum. Maths, English, Science and other subjects aren't as important to her so are usually downloaded free from internet, or library, charity shops or some books from The Works.

They seem to have learned though Bulbasaur All three of ours are happily working in their chosen fields...as are all their friends.
I know hundreds of formerly radiclaly unschooled young adults now.
Not one of them is a NEET (NOT in EDUCATION EMPLOYMENT or TRAINING) None.

Most (because of the tiny budget their families live on) have had to work around college and university, to pay their way as we have none to spare, and got themselves to work -at menial jobs to begin with- on time organised etc, with no problem, because they were choosing to be there, in order to help achieve their own goals.

Does school teach that Bulbasaur? I don't remember going to a shelf stacking 101 class.

It's not uncreative as such for both parents to work but if you want one person to be at home then there are some possible ways around it which you might not think of at first. Single parents manage to support a household on one wage, because they have to. It doesn't mean that a family who have two parents in work is doing something wrong, it might be the right thing, but there is never ever just one solution to a problem.

Actually I've just remembered I do know a single parent who unschools two children, runs a business from home and dealt with the death of her husband alone. You could say she is lucky, I suppose she did what she had to do, just like any of us do.

combust22 I didn't mean to offend-I was taking the words of anoyther poster here, who said it may be possible by being quite creative-and answered in that context.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I can think of half a dozen close friends who are single parents who do just that BertieBotts

mini- that's some conspiracy theory and not one I agree with.
Schools exist because they are largely better at educating children then parents.

Societies in which children have limited access to education tend to have illiterate populations. They may have some radicals but often not very nice ones.

Home education only really works in Western countries which already have educated populations- educated by schools. It's success depends entirely on the mass of educated people we have in our society.

If everyone home educated we would soon be an illiterate bunch scrabbling around in hedgerows for our dinner.
Home educators need schools to work, otherwise we would be back to the dark ages, ploughing up the fields with the arsebone of a giraffe.

Ok, I agree, HEd is quite a middle class "pursuit" and it isn't something that two parents on minimum wage could consider. But think about it logically for a minute...

Why are so many families now in this ridiculous predicament where two wages barely cover their living? Well, that is because of all the indoctrination and ideology you received and assimilated during your many years in class.

The purpose of education in state schools is simply a sifting and sorting exercise, where some are "groomed" for toilet cleaning and others for admin and middle management jobs, but never for anything better. The school system is part of the ideological state apparatus, and the most effective.

People fail to appreciate why others may not actually want their children to be subject to this indoctrination. Yes this may mean that these children are never fully assimilated into passivity and may actually question the social structure.

delphiniums, I know this is off the point of the thread, but I loathe the term "babywearing" as well - and I have carried both of boys in a sling well into toddlerhood. They are their own people, and I am not "wearing" them as part of me -I am carrying them, because they are too little to walk far on their own, and like to be cuddled.

I also agree that "unschooling" applies to children who have previously been in school.

I do think BLW is fair enough though. babies choose from a selection of foods that are put in front of them, as opposed to mum forcing purees down with a spoon,whether or not baby likes it.

Anyway, as you were. ..

Has anyone tried forcing purée down a baby who doesn't want it?! What if a baby would prefer a purée - how would you know?
Sorry - shouldn't hijack.
Jargon is definitely middle class even if HE isn't.
I just loathe the term - it is like me saying I am unhospitalising mine- impossible except for the youngest who had a few days in hospital.

And even he didn't need unhospitalising for more than a week!

If anyone is interested in finding out more, one of the Unschooling FB groups has a file of suggested resources, it says:

My favourite is unschooling website is 'Joyfully Rejoycing' a gentle approach and a source of inspiration and reassurance when I wobbled in earlier days:
joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Also, Pam Larrichia:
www.livingjoyfully.ca
If you sign up to her newsletter, she sends you a series of emails on exploring unschooling. Great for when you're trying to get your head around what unschooling is, and whether it's for you. She also has a book: www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Learn-Ideas-Joyful-Unschooling/dp/098773332X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361312802&sr=8-1.

There is also the sometimes more plain speaking, but enlightening Sandra Dodd
sandradodd.com/unschooling.
This site is less linear than Joyfully Rejoycing and is a collection of things written by unschoolers, mainly from the Always Learning discussion list (see below). It's not so good as a starting point (though this page is helpful for those new to unschooling sandradodd.com/help), but great for looking up specific issues/topics/concerns (and then following the leads & links to explore all sorts of other things).

These four sites alone will lead you on to so much more, as and when you are ready.

In the UK, Jan Fortune Wood wrote about Autonomous Education. Jan talked at an earlier time, here about Autonomous Education, and some of the books she has written:
edheretics.gn.apc.org/EHT025.htm.
It's not mentioned in that article, but I liked Winning Parent, Winning Child: www.amazon.co.uk/Winning-Parent-Child-Parenting-Everybody/dp/0954943309/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361450452&sr=8-1

Dr Alan Thomas MSc, PhD, FBPsS, researched what he calls 'informal learning' in the UK and Australia. Seen here talking at HesFes:

Alan has also written books based on his research:www.ioe.ac.uk/staff/phdt/24653.html

Other books for starting out:
www.amazon.co.uk/Unschooling-Unmanual-Nanda-Van-Gestel/dp/0968575455/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361312883&sr=1-1 andwww.freechild.info.

Sandra Dodd also has a book version of her website:
sandradodd.com/bigbook/
and I recommend signing up for her daily thought/inspiration at
justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk.

Grace Llewellyn;s "Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to quit school and get a real life and education" was so inspiring for me. Whilst it is American and written for teens, it really opened my eyes to the freedoms home education can bring-this is the link for the book, but apparently it's free to download if you google for it:
www.scribd.com/doc/28712926/The-Teenage-Liberation-Handbook-How-to-Quit-School-and-Get-a-Real-Life-and-Educationand

Anything by John Holt is always well worth reading:
www.johnholtgws.com/teach-your-own-the-john-holt-book-of-homeschooling/
www.holtgws.com/whatisunschoolin.html are two places to start.

DISCUSSION LISTS: There are quite a few yahoo unschooling discussion lists which are very active. Unschooling Basics is good for people who are new to unschooling:
groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/?yguid=416020383 and Always Learning for when you've got the basic concepts: groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/.

A word of caution though - these groups are not like other discussion and support groups. They exist to discuss unschooling, rather than support individuals. They function to support people in unschooling better rather than supporting individuals on a personal level - more like a personal/life coach, who will call you out on stuff and push you further towards your goals rather than a best friend who will hold your hand while you cry about something. Both operate in a similar way and are very tightly moderated, to make sure that posts are on topic and add value. It can be a bit of a shock when you first start reading (or posting) there, so it's best to just read for a few weeks to get used to the style....

Unschooling doesn't mean that to me at all. Unschooling in my eyes is completely separate from structured bedtimes and meal times, the unschooling part is the education and the other parts are what any parent has to do regardless of how their child is educated. Completely unlinked and separated. Many parents with children in school don't have set bedtimes or meal times.

I do a mixture of home ed and unschooling. I can't decide what label fits it most. They learn by doing, experiencing and asking questions. It's very child led and unstructured in that I wouldn't ever force them to sit down in a chair for an hour and listen to be drivel on about something they're disinterested in- I'd send them to school if I wanted that . If they want to read, write, draw, paint, sing, count, do maths, crafts, play in the sandpit, count in French, bake, go swimming, go to the park etc then that's what we do. The balls in their court really, I hand them the information they ask for or I hand them the information and they decide whether they're interested in listening further at that time.

HOWEVER 7 PM is bedtime, no quibbles. Mealtimes aren't set times per se but they are around about the same time and we do have to sit at the table. Manners are important as is cleanliness and listening to instructions such as don't run into the road, close the door behind you etc. Oh and they haven't co slept once since they were babies, no grown children in between us in bed. I'm also very strict with food, a bit of a nutrition nazi AND I correct their pronunciation if they ever miss a T from a word. So in ways it's very structured and there's routine but when it comes to their education they're free and that's important to us.

The government don't like home education one bit, can't control what the children wear, eat, learn etc you see.