I don't understand 'unschooling'? Can someone/ anyone explain why this is good for a child?

[TalkingPoint]

I get the concept of home educating and fully understand why someone may choose to home school. It is a decision I have even considered taking myself - but the concept of 'extreme' 'unschooling' where the child has no boundaries put in place seems to divert completely away from the responsibilities of parents. I don't under how this can be considered constructive? Is there anyone who can explain it to me, I see examples on a forum I use of children never having a bedtime and being up till 1am, never having to take regard of any rules and all the learning being completely decided by the child. I get why this may fun but I do struggle to see how these children will grow up in the social structures of the world as it is. I don't agree with all the structures we have in place but until some sort of revolution, if we want children to succeed/ function in the world they need to understand these structures at least to some extent. there is also a very good chance I just don't get it, so happy to be educated?!

There was a thread a few months ago where adults who had been Home Educated were asked to share their experiences. Where those adults felt dissatisfied with the experienced they'd had, often there was a link to getting the 'usual' qualifications (e.g. GCSEs) and learning to conform to routines/rules ready for the workplace as adults. I found it interesting as we may have to HE for primary (lack of school places locally). Unschooling in the way described in the OP would seem to create an adult who would struggle to function in a job unless they were self-employed.

"it might not lead to self motivation and fitting into society etc..."

But then going through school doesn't lead to self motivation, or at least it didn't for me. Extrinsic motivation (the draw of praise/good marks from a teacher, penalties for not doing homework, etc) is more likely to squash a sense of self motivation rather than foster it. There have been a lot of studies on this.

Fitting into society is relative. I do think that HE can give a sense of "Why should I have to do that?" but it also shows the value of learning/finding something out in order to do something else. Children who are HE aren't just expected to teach themselves complex stuff, there are classes they can join like any other child if there's something which is difficult to self teach - and a lot of things are. You can learn to play a tune by fiddling about with an instrument but if you want to learn how to read music and about timing and placement in an orchestra then you probably want to go to music lessons. That's not out of reach for a HE child any more than it is for a schooled child, the parent's responsibility is to make them aware of these possibilities as well. Language learning is easier when you have an opportunity to make conversation or practise speaking in that language - which you could access through a language club, language class, international penfriend scheme, contacts through skype, etc.

I don't see why they would struggle to function in a job. Most adults are able to work their sleeping patterns around work even if it's not the way they would like to sleep. And HE children will still learn that there are things in life which need to be done, as they will see bills being paid, they'll probably pitch in with housework like any child, perhaps more, shopping has to be done, meal planning, budgeting. To go on holiday or to visit family, far away places etc you have to plan the journey and choose the place to stay/transport options balancing cost with placement, time, reviews, etc. They probably have more input into these kinds of decision making processes than a schooled child just because they're around more and actually it's quite an educational experience.

Really interesting thread!.

I do wonder though if this approach will only work with bright, neurotypical children?.

What happens to the ones who aren't as clever or have poorer executive functioning and therefore can't see that doing X means you'll be able to do Y in the end?.

How about the ones that lack motivation, direction or simply don't know what they want to learn or do?.

You've never done anything that could be described as "parenting", notquiterural??? Really? I wonder would an impartial observer agree with your obviously biased view of your kids having turned out ok?
I suppose it's possible (), but more by luck than design, I'd say.

I think that the problem with automenous education is that children follow their passions to the exclusion of all else. A child might utterly hate writing, but love science. Later on they will face a brick wall where they cannot progress in science unless dramtically improve their writing skills. Ofcourse the advocates of autmoneous education would say a child will then sit down and learn how to write.

The problem is that it takes years to develop writing skills. A child could find themselves not being able to progress their science education for quite a long time and get frustrated.

How do we allow children to follow their passions, but get a grounding in reading, writings and maths at the same time? I like the style that children learn in reception. I feel that my year 1 child was better suited to reception style learning. Her school has a learning log which is very open ended and almost like automenous learning.

For the point about NT children, not at all, probably it fits SN children more as they might struggle to fit into a mainstream school system, whereas a bright NT child will generally get on very well at school, especially if they are also confident socially.

A less clever child will still be able to proceed but they won't be surrounded by children who are visibly overtaking them - they can go at their own pace and follow their own interests without labelling themselves as "dumb" or "bad at this". So they may not be as academic - with this kind of approach, that's not considered a failure.

I think there are lots of situations where we understand that doing X leads to being able to or allowed to do Y - learning to drive for instance. There is no IQ limit on passing a driving test. Or training in a sport will make you stronger and more able to compete at that sport. Or learning some drawing techniques can make you a better artist. Eating more healthily can help you lose weight. Lots of non-academic stuff.

It doesn't tend to take years to learn reading and writing when they start later though, in Germany and some other countries where children start school later the children are typically reading and writing by Christmas, whereas in British schools where they start earlier but have a slower introduction to it, some children get it straight away at four and some only just grasp the basics at almost six.

I think it's quite unlikely that a child would ONLY be interested in science and not have any cause to want to read/write things before a highly advanced age, and in any case there is no such thing as a brick wall where somebody decides "Nope. Not allowed to learn any more science until you can read." There will always be things to see and find out without reading and there will always be different avenues to explore when you are literate. There's no such thing as "doing all of the non-literate science in the world".

Plus, writing is a very practical skill - you can write notes and letters to people, you can label things, you can write yourself reminders. Reading is useful too, it can tell you which way to go, whether to pull or push a door, what option you're selecting in a game. There isn't always an adult or older sibling around to read things for you and if I was the parent, I'd be more reluctant to write and/or read things for a child as they got older in order to nudge them towards the possibility that they might want to learn to do it themselves. That might not be unschooling, though. But it's not always going to be possible to have somebody else read something for you.

I'm not sure if you can call our style of H.ed completely autonomous because I bought books for dd to use and down loaded resources/ made my own etc.
However, we let dd decide what to do and when to do it, so rather than say right we need to do Maths or Science or English etc we let her choose.
More often than not is music or languages, she doesn't think she has an interest in anything else. her English needs brushing up quite a bit but her maths and science is fine as is history. The trick is to let them learn but not put a title to the learning and not have exercise books with subject titles.
It is difficult to get away from the NC even if you aren't following per se if you actually look at what they are doing its not far away.
My dd will have had a brilliant 3 years if she goes to school next year, I'm not worried about her abilities as during this year she will be able to catch up anything she has missed as it is possible to cover the whole of a key stage in one year as she proved with Italian last year and will do with French, this year.

The concept is not as hands-off as it seems, and as some family's attempt. Children arent really left completely to themselves to get themselves an education. Standard schooling/parenting gets the child acclimatised to schedules and deadlines by shepherding them through them for years until they accept the need and take over for themselves. Knowledge is acquired through a combination of outside(adult) organisation and internal(child) enthusiasm. At school, this begins on the adult side, with planning and organising. In unschooling, it begins with the childs interest and is followed up with adult assistance.

In families where i have known the concept to work, Unschooling is like a continuation of what most families do with infants and preschoolers. Enriching items and habits are part of the home and their life. The parents have a sense of curiosity and the habit of researching and self-teaching. They are modelling self-education habits. The house has books, tools, craft supplies and random useful materials and if it has internet, the children's use is encouraged, but in the same way as with books or toys, the adults are engaged and aware of that use. The parents arrange for regular visits to libraries/bookshops, museums, parks, trails and nature preserves, interaction with animals, and other active learning opportunities. If the children have a new interest, the parents create opportunities for the child to find out more. Children are encouraged to contact professionals in a field they are curious about. The house may look a tip, but the family is living in an active classroom, as it were.

If the child wants to stay up all night studying they can. But that doesn't mean they are excused from whatever their household responsibilities are. The successful unschooling families i have known are very much into family = team, we are all in this together, we each have our role in supporting everyone's ability to pursue their interests by pulling your own weight, etc. Eventually, they are meant to internally schedule their responsibilities and interests in ways that make the household flow well, because that makes pursuing their own interests easier in the long run. The true ability to do this comes along in just as wide an age range as with schooling, IMO. Some catch on early how to avoid hassle, others never do, either not minding the hassle or desiring the (negative) attention. Unschooling parents certainly do expect chores, some level of self-care (though maybe not as demanding as parents whose kids are exposed daily to the public), pet-care, care for communal goods, respect for each others private goods etc. Their methods for expressing their expectation or penalising lack of completion may look different, and even lax, to outsiders, but as all the experts remind us, consistency is the main thing with teaching anything.

In the family where I have seen it fail horrendously, the parents had various hang ups about 'the man' or 'the system' or negative school experiences regarding special needs of their own that either weren't diagnosed or were but not resolved well/at all. Their children were left to educate themselves with nothing but toys of no particular intent; TV & internet access of varying time and supervision; a very heavy housework load, and not much else. It basically amounted to neglect at best, and possibly abuse. Eventually the parent in control of so much of the household, left. It was a sad situation.

Re: The whole employment thing anf fitting into a job , or questioning that a homeschooled job may focus on some subjects and do poorly at others, is a big Red Herring.

Schooled children turn out to be incompetent employees who fail at arriving on time and treating co-workers respectfully. Even those with a perfect set of GCSE's and long list of accomplishments within the school setting.

Most children leave secondary with GCSE's in their favoured topics only, putting less effort into other subjects, right down to just doing enough to pass. Not to mention the numbers of subjects they didn't take. True, many children accept that they will favor a specific set of subjects because that is what they are told to do for Uni. The thing is, if Uni is a goal, a self-directed learner will follow that script, or research away around it. There are ways around, but they generally require a lot of self-directed effort at proving a history of self-direction and accomplishment so not just any numpty that blew off his or her exams can try that on, or succeed if they do. (A few do, i am sure, because they were, in fact, unschooling themselves.)

People with sciency math dependent Phds often can't write a memo or other unscientific writing. their typist/spouse/graduate student assistant/editor will sort it well enough because if their math is provable, their peers will probably skim the text anyway, just as they do. The math mattersar more than great prose. Though if they can manage great prose, their writings will gain popularity with the rest of us, and that can be quite useful to them, their lab, their Uni in terms of their theories being accepted generally.

Really, any claim that HS or UnS students fail to meet some standard expectation is silly because not every schooled child will either.

Stormy

Definitely agree that the NC is very limiting, I think my point was that whatever the child's interest it can be linked somehow.
When dd has her language lesson if she asks her teacher a particular question, she never replies that it isn't on the syllabus, or you don't cover that until year x she just tells her. It has been great for dd as she has a minimum of KS2 knowledge that will help if she goes to school in the future. If she decides against or doesn't audition well, then nothing has been lost and she will continue with H.ed

Err, student not job in that first line.

Stormymidnight. I agree. Everything is valuable. Everything. I say that as one who was quite good at schoolwork, but has struggled to apply the skill of schoolwork to an actual career. Eventually i went back and studied a craft. Wish i had the nerve to have done so in the first place.

Wanted to mention a couple of things which I thought about relating to the previous page - sorry can't remember who was posting!

The Sims 2 has the best genetic model out of 2, 3, and 4. It's genetics on a punnet square (or whatever that's called) although skin tones work on more of a graduated scale, especially if you add extra custom ones in, and there are resources online which will tell you more about how the genetics work.

A really fantastic, older little known game if you have DC interested in DNA, genetics, chemical biology in general is Creatures. You can buy it here, packaged with an emulator for modern versions of Windows. The graphics aren't flashy but the mechanics of the game are brilliant. You can look right into their brain chemistry and hormone levels at various times, in response to different situations or even things that they eat or you inject them with.

For History and Geography of a few different countries check out the blog "Wait But Why" - it does have adult language, so be aware of that, but it's really accessible, interesting and thought provoking.

Yes! :) I think you mentioned Sims but wanted to say that Sims 2 has the best model - Sims 3 messes up genetics totally and I'm not sure about Sims 4 yet. I'm still playing Sims 2 and think it's a brilliant game.

It's made me want to learn coding as well, though I'm totally useless about it. The ModTheSims forums in their "creator help" section are the best resource for anybody who wants to learn how to do things like that.

sims.wikia.com/wiki/Genetics

Sorry will stop derailing the thread now! :)

We are an unschooling family and it's without doubt the best thing we've ever done.

Unschooling (or any other form of home ed) isn't in any way a lazy or easy option. Unschooling is not unparenting, children are not neglected or left to bring themselves up. They are encouraged to follow their interests and passions, and parents put a great amount of effort into facilitating that. Parenting an unschooled child is an incredibly involved process, not a way for parents to get more free time.

I don't believe that unschooling causes children to be unmotivated or unable to cope in 'real life'. I know a lot of children who went to school and are completely unmotivated and unable to cope in real life! Unschooling doesn't need to prepare children for real life, because unschooling IS real life, it's living and learning through everyday experiences, rather than the artificial environment of a classroom. My children are involved in every part of our life, from helping run the household to cooking to travelling on public transport to booking a holiday to managing money. I daresay they have more life skills than many children who go to school! Because they are able to help make decisions and because their opinions are valued equally within our household, they are confident and self motivated, with good self esteem.

Unschooled children are not unable to meet deadlines or follow rules. School is not the only area of life where good timekeeping is required. Taking a bus or train journey, getting to a club or hobby or event on time, baking a cake - all of these things require good time management. Unschooled children can see the real life benefits to good time keeping (get up in time to catch your bus or you'll miss your club, keep an eye on how long your cake has been in the oven or else it'll burn) and so will naturally learn these skills. An unschooled child isn't sheltered from the reality of the world, we ALL have rules and boundaries we have to comply by, obeying the law, following instructions at a club we choose to join, social etiquette etc, so it is daft to suggest that unschooled children will never be able to fit into society just because they don't go to school.

Allowing your child to follow their interests 'to the detriment of all else' is not a bad thing. I can't think of a single hobby or interest someone could follow which doesn't encompass a multitude of 'subjects' and use a vast range of learning skills. Almost everything we do in life involves some level of maths and english, for example. I have never known a child who is only interested in one thing, where that thing is limited and where there are no opportunities for that interest to lead onto other interests - on the contrary, being allowed to follow your passions and your own curiosity will naturally lead from one topic to another, and because an unschooled child can spend as much time on a topic as they like, and delve as deep into it as they like, they will usually have a much more in depth and comprehensive view of it than they would had they learned it in school.

I think it's important that children are encouraged to follow their passion, whether in school or otherwise. I don't think that it gives children false hope or sets them up to fail in the real world, quite the opposite. No, not everyone will waltz into their dream job, often you may work several jobs you don't like whilst you aim towards whatever you're passionate about, but unschooled children are no exception from that - like any other child, they may do part time work whilst studying at college or uni. I don't think unschooling gives kids unrealistic expectations of what they can achieve in the future, but it does give them the self confidence and self motivation to strive for something they want to do. The idea that an unschooled child would only thrive if they were self employed or that they only fit a certain niche in the job market is a daft one.

Studies show that, unsurprisingly, children learn best when they're genuinely interested in whatever they're learning about, and learning about it in a way which interests them, as opposed to school where you're often taught boring things in a boring way purely for the purpose of passing a test. Human beings are innately inquisitive, we have a natural desire for information and to learn new things, especially as children. It would be nigh on impossible to stop a child from learning. Things like 'just' playing or 'just' watching tv are incredibly educational. Being able to learn something because you have a genuine interest in it, rather than because you're told you have to learn it, means the information is more likely to be retained long term, rather than retained for as long as it takes to pass an exam and then forgotten again.

Not all children will have a good unschooling experience, i'm sure there are some children who have been unschooled and haven't come out of that experience well, but I would suggest the same is true tenfold for children in school. If a home educated or unschooled child doesn't do well in life or is a bit 'odd', people always seem to put that down to the fact the child was home educated/unschooled, yet plenty of children who go to school don't do well or are a bit 'odd' and no-one ever puts that down to the fact that they went to school! My hopes for my children are that they are happy, that they have good self esteem, that they feel confident and able to make decisions and to problem solve, that they are self motivated and that they have a natural thirst and passion and joy for whatever they do, and unschooling is helping us to achieve that.

And for what it's worth, we're not middle class, we're on the poverty line if not slightly below it. We've recently been on Jobseekers Allowance whilst my partner was between jobs, now he is working fulltime and I am a stay at home mum. We don't have a lot of money at all and we have to budget for everything, but you don't need a lot of money to home educate or unschool - the internet, libraries, friends and family, everyday, real world experiences, all of those things are cheap or free, and they are the only things you need to unschool. We've also found (compared to my stepchildren who are in school) that unschooling is much cheaper - no uniforms, no school lunches, school runs, expensive school trips (especially residential ones, the cost made my eyes water), and all the extra things that cost money - non uniform days and various donations to things. The money we save on those things, we can use on trips out and books and whatever else we're interested in. We are living proof that you don't need a lot of money to home ed.