I don't understand 'unschooling'? Can someone/ anyone explain why this is good for a child?

[TalkingPoint]

I get the concept of home educating and fully understand why someone may choose to home school. It is a decision I have even considered taking myself - but the concept of 'extreme' 'unschooling' where the child has no boundaries put in place seems to divert completely away from the responsibilities of parents. I don't under how this can be considered constructive? Is there anyone who can explain it to me, I see examples on a forum I use of children never having a bedtime and being up till 1am, never having to take regard of any rules and all the learning being completely decided by the child. I get why this may fun but I do struggle to see how these children will grow up in the social structures of the world as it is. I don't agree with all the structures we have in place but until some sort of revolution, if we want children to succeed/ function in the world they need to understand these structures at least to some extent. there is also a very good chance I just don't get it, so happy to be educated?!

I think that is everyone's hope, FireSquirrel. Some get it through school, some through HE - we are all so different one system can't suit all, even within the same family.

If you're a single mum you can home educate if you rely on benefits. Ain't that simple for all of us! If I home educated dd we would literally have NO money!

Oh gosh yes Delphiniumsblue, I wasn't suggesting for a moment that unschooling suits everyone, i'm sure it doesn't :) I am aware that some children do thrive in school, and that some families aren't able to home ed or unschool even if they wanted to. My post wasn't intended to bash schools, simply to quash some of the misconceptions or unfounded concerns about unschooling. They are all valid ways to educate and it's a shame that home ed and unschooling are often seen as a poor second to traditional schooling or as a last resort when there are problems at school, rather than as valid educational methods in their own right.

I know it wasn't FireSquirrel. I just get taken aback by those who think school moulds children all the same and wonder why they don't have more faith in their own children.
You have to support the child you have. It is a bit sad that people like markhammax can't- even if the child would be better off HEd ( I refuse to use unschooled as a term).

Not really markha. I suspect you have never been a single parent on benefits if you think it's as easy as that.

What!?

I AM a single parent on benefits! How did you get that from my post?

What!?

I AM a single parent on benefits! How did you get that from my post?

I was saying you could only home educate if you relied on benefits! I didn't say it was easy

I think she got it from the first sentence, rather than the whole.

I hardly said it was easy! I was pointing out that no matter how battered our cars are some of us won't be able to HE simple as

I'm sorry, I've totally misunderstood It's not the case anyway. I have two single parent friends who home ed and neither are reliant on benefits, they work from home. Conversely I have another friend who is a lone parent on benefits, wants to HE but is basically being told no, you can't do that, you have to get a job once your child is school age.

It sounded like you were saying benefits as a single parent are a nice handy income to cover the costs of HE but that it's not that easy if you're not in that situation. (ie, a couple?) I don't know, I obviously didn't read it the way it was intended. Was the first sentence a quote?

You don't need money to HE but you do need money to pay the bills.

No - I was saying the only way you could HE as a single parent would be to be reliant on benefits - ie not ideal or easy (or even possible!)

I am a single mum and I couldn't HE my daughter as I have to work; if I don't work we get no money coming in other than benefits. She's not school age but when she is I'll obviously need to work. I work now but only 16 hours.

I was explaining to people who were all 'oh well we just go camping and drive an old car' okay you can drive an old car but what about eating!?

People from all walks of life H. ed their dc and in many different ways. I don't think you can say you can't do it because you are a sp, wohp, not very bright etc. I think individual circumstances dictate if it is possible for you or not.
I wish I had known about H.ed when ds2 was at school, he would have thrived rather than flounder. Ds1 was totally made for school, so was dd until she decided it was getting in the way of her career.
Some it suits others it doesn't.

Oh then I think you missed out a word. But it is possible - you either have to have some way of income coming in while being at home, share childcare with another family, have HE-sympathetic childcare or family support. Or I suppose have a very low cost lifestyle which is livable on benefits and be very efficient at dodging their job hunting insistence.

I do totally agree with you it's completely out of reach for the vast majority of lone parents, and I hate that - I think it should be an option for everybody as long as you're committed to it.

As for unschooling extending to other areas of life such as bedtimes (as mentioned by the OP), the thinking behind that is that children are given as much freedom to make their own choices as is safe to do so, and that they will learn from them.

If you tell your child 'time to go to bed, else you'll be tired in the morning', they often don't believe you, or don't care, or just genuinely aren't tired yet, and bedtime is often a battle. If a child has the freedom to make the choice to stay up late, and realises that yes, they were tired in the morning, they'll learn to better listen to their own body and will naturally choose to go to bed when they're tired. Because staying up late isn't forbidden, it isn't seen as exciting and there's no reason to 'rebel' by doing so.

The same with food - if certain foods (sweets, 'junk') aren't forbidden or restricted, then they don't become exciting or desirable, and so children don't feel the need to binge on them, rather they view sweets the same way as any other food, and learn to naturally regulate themselves and listen to their body. The same with watching tv or anything else.

Some parents worry that by letting go of restrictions, children will make 'bad' choices, but no unschooled child has ever eaten nothing but sweets or done nothing but watch tv for 6 months straight. Yes, a child who was used to having restrictions may initially binge on sweets or tv or late bedtimes if those restrictions are removed, but once they realise that tv/sweets/bed will always be there, that they aren't going to be taken away again, they will naturally fall into a pattern of listening to their own body, and by doing so, they are better able to trust themselves and to make good decisions, and that means higher self esteem.

Unschooling isn't about letting children do whatever they like and sod everyone else, or letting them treat others badly or do things which're unsafe. It's about mutual respect and helping children to feel valued within a family, treated as equals. It's not about never saying no, but about saying yes a bit more.

I have home educated my children for the last 2 years, I started off doing some de schooling. Whilst my children were de schooling, I allowed them to be on the internet as long as they liked, play on their ps3 as much as they wanted to, and go to bed when they wanted to. Don't get me wrong at the time I was thinking this seems all wrong, but I noticed that was because we were still so schooled in our way of thinking (btw removed my children at the beginning of year 6 & 9). After about 6 months they became bored with doing that and naturally went into wanting something different, and became more inquisitive, they asked more questions and began to think more for themselves. My son (his choice) chose in year 10 to go to a college funded course to learn about construction because he felt this is what he wanted to do as a career. He found over the course of that year he really liked bricklaying - something he naturally just thought he wouldn't like. Even though he could get up and go to bed when he liked, he chose to self regulate himself and get up at 6am to catch a bus for 7am, which included 2 buses. He got to his college for 8.45, he was always the first one there out of his class; and used to help the tutor set up, even though he had the furthest to travel. This really bought on his maturity, how many 14 year old do you know that would do that through choice on a winter's day morning. Anyway he has finished that. Now when he gets chance to, he helps on projects, he learns his maths because of measuring etc, and he has also chosen to go to college to study some GCSE's, the college is nowhere near us, and now he has 2 early mornings each week. At no point do I have to fight him to do this. I firmly believe because I ended up on the unschooling route this has enabled my son to make choices for him and why he is so grounded and mature in his way of thinking now. Both of my children can independently catch trains, my son accidentally caught the wrong one only last week, I didn't know - he came back through the door un nerved and told me where he'd got himself back from. How many 15 year olds so that? My daughter I am unschooling with her and because of this I get more productive work out of her because we are doing it when she wants to. Either way I don't mind, if my children are learning, and I still continue to get as many positive feedbacks as I do from people who know my children then that is all that matters - it means this path is working for us as a family.

I think home schooling is a gamble on a child's future, children are not mini adults.

They need a bed time, routine and boundaries.

A fascinating read with all the experiences and opinions! I've done quite a lot of reading surrounding unschooling though probably would not choose it myself.

I think it has a huge dependency on the child, particularly if extended to parenting as well. For example, I am a very motivated person who self teaches all the time and has a insatiable appetite for knowledge, particularly in certain interests and have been this way since a child. I learn quickly from mistakes and am very intune with my body. I would choose to eat healthily as a child because I knew eating a bad diet made me feel bad and also affected my mood, I did active things because I knew being active made me feel healthy, aided my sleep and made me feel more energetic. I think I would have been suited to 'unschooling' though still believe some guidance would have been needed. My DH on the other hand is not a motivated person in most ways. He would choose to stay up for 14 hours a day on the Xbox, do no exercise and eat a poor diet consisting of 'nice' tasting foods like pizza, chips and chocolate. He did not recognise how unwell this was making him, either as a child or as an adult. I refused to buy unhealthy foods (made easy by being on a low budget and therefore once our shopping list was worked out and ordered there was no spare money to buy junk) when we moved in together and therefore he had to eat healthily. There was a lot of complaining at first but after encouragement he did realise how much better he was feeling. However, even knowing that I still have to remind him to exercise, to stay healthy in his diet and why it's good to do that. He would still - if given the choice - spend all day and most of the night on his Xbox to the point of making himself ill. He does not learn well from mistakes and is not intune with his body. I would not want to put a child that would make similar choices as him into unschooling, particularly not extending it into parenting.

Not sure that makes a huge amount of sense (and DH is a great guy btw, we both have our faults but I just wanted to illustrate the difference in our personalities and ability to listen to our body) but wondered what people's thoughts are on this?

For those who unschool, home school, home educate- does that also extent to other activities?

Reading about some of the objections about mainstrean schooling, boxing children into ways of thinkoing, catagories, not allowing them to choose their studies etc.

I ask because some "extra curricular" activities also work to quite tight discipline and ethos. I am thinking particularly some classes such as martial arts or dancing.

My DD attends a dance school ( alongside "normal school" ) and the discipline within her ballet group particularly is extremely tight.
Hours of repetitive practicing on certain moves- even when the body is aching and the feet are sore and the students want to give up, but they also know that being pushed beyonf their limits yields results. Teacher has high expectations and works the sudents very hard. Feet get blistered and bleed.

Uniform regulations are very srtict too. Certain colours, hairstyles, no visible grips, no pants on show beneath the leotard etc.

My DDs dance school is by no means particulary strict or gruesome, it seems fairly typical of ballet school working to such a high level.

How do home educated kids cope in such an environment or are things like ballet school off limits too?

You really have to forget the philosophy and wait and see what sort of child you have and work with, and support, them. Some want and need routines and firm boundaries - there is never one size.
It starts early- you may have decided on attachment parenting. It it is never going to work if you have a child like one of mine who just wanted to be put down and have his own space.
It also depends on your personality. Children do what you do and never what you say. Choosing their own bedtimes, what to eat etc is not within my personality. As adults they regulate their own bedtimes, cook and eat healthily etc because they have imbibed it from babies. Don't feel you have to do anything - just go with your gut feeling. All they need is love, security and time. Always keep the lines of communication open and don't over think it all.

"It starts early- you may have decided on attachment parenting. It it is never going to work if you have a child like one of mine who just wanted to be put down and have his own space."

Attachment parenting is not all about physical closeness though. I have a child who enjoyed her own personal space- AP is about far more than having a child close to yourr body.

I don't agree about the bedtime thing- even my Oh has to be reminded that staying up late is not always in his best interests- even though it feels good at the time.

It is possible to stay up later than is physically good for you and still be having fun.
THe idea of late bedtimes is a very recent habit - only until the advent of cheap lighting has it even really been possible. Only a few generations ago our ancestors would have had far earlier bedtimes than we did.

I am strict about bedtimes.

AP is more of that jargon- as if you are not emotionally attached unless you have read the book! My DS wanted to be put down- I was just as emotionally close to him as the one who liked being physically close.
As an adult I know they need plenty of sleep. Bedtime was a great time of the day and getting close. It was routine and never a problem. Bath, Story, Bed. It suited me- it needs to suit you too.