to ask - if your DC go to a church school, then -

[nomdemere]

• if entry was based on church attendance, then how does your vicar know how often you go?

I'm not sure my vicar actually knows who I am, let alone notices me in the congregation every time.

Our CofE secondary has a points system based on frequency of attendance (monthly, fortnightly, 'most weeks', 'every week'). The vicar has to countersign I just can't see how our vicar will know which category I am in. He's not there every week himself!

How does it work where you are? I feel slightly embarrassed about actually asking him, it will sound rather pushy.

This is such an interestig thread and has opened my eyes to the schooling system in England.

Here in Scotland the situation is quite different- there is little competition for schools, most families send their child to their ( state run non denominational ) school. There are faith schools - all Catholic as I am aware, and these are used by Catholic families, few non-catholics would send their child to a faith school.

And whether it is good or not is utterly irrelevant - the point is that Catholic parents have choice where non-Catholic parents do not.

Really? That's strange, because I have read more than one comment on here saying that the alternative non-denominational school is 'shit'.

And a lot of the reasons why so many faith schools are seen as desirable is because a lot of parents believe that they are a way of keeping their own DC away from poor kids, or, you know, non-white ones...

Got it in one SGB! But you do know it's all about 'choice' don't you. Nothing to do with the perceived quality of the school...

As I thought I had explained. Yes, there is a choice. Either my ds attends a Catholic school, and receives a good education with brilliant pastoral care, or he attends the non denominational school, and receives a (comparatively) bad education with non existent pastoral care and all sorts of other problems including not being able to get into the half decent secondary schools. What kind of choice is that? A pretty shitty one, which surely no one can deny.

Also, as I explained in my last post, the middle class / race issue is not applicable to everyone, it's not applicable for me anyhow. Although I do appreciate that it is the case for some (depressingly)

I do resent being spoken of in this way. I'm working class and mixed race (and my primary reflects this), so to me, what has been said up thread is really quite offensive. Not everyone in the country will conform to your theories, open your minds.

Well, in my area the only aspect in which faith schools are representative is in relation to race, because the West Indian and African communities in London tend to have a strong tradition of church going.

But they exclude white working class children because there are very low rates of church attendance in this group. I suspect that church schools don't mind it too much as this group tends to also perform the most badly academically, especially working class boys, who are right down at the bottom of the achievement tables.

The church school my dgc go to has no church attendance requirement. There is strong involvement with the church with services acouple of times a term and visits to school from the vicar. My dgc aren't even baptised.The school is wonderful and there was a waiting list for Reception this year. They just apply the usual admissions criteria.

But they exclude white working class children because there are very low rates of church attendance in this group

Thats interesting, we all know parents are sat in church when they don't really want to be, to get their child into the catholic school...so the parents of these poor white working class could do the same couldn't they?

Its not closed off is it, all you have to do is sit in church as much as you can before applying? Its the route thousands of parents have to take.

As for race, our school is more like an international school, amercian, children from ALL over europe, asian, black, and so on.

As I thought I had explained. Yes, there is a choice. Either my ds attends a Catholic school, and receives a good education with brilliant pastoral care, or he attends the non denominational school, and receives a (comparatively) bad education with non existent pastoral care and all sorts of other problems including not being able to get into the half decent secondary schools. What kind of choice is that? A pretty shitty one, which surely no one can deny

same here except add in our local school is also 80% non english speaking

for all if you worried about vicar not rememvering you go into church office and suugest a booklet with stamp

With me, I think I just find it excruciating talking to priests or anyone within the Church. I feel that they know what I am about, why I am there.

Although I have always been a member of the parish (I just went AWOL for about 10 years when I moved away) and my mum is a member, and I have every right to be there, it just feels awkward. I just don't feel comfortable around priests!! (all except one - my dear Fr Peter, who I love, and who left the parish before I moved away - if he was still at my Church I would be over the moon, I wouldn't feel as much of a fraud, I would want to go to church - just to see him)

I need to get over it and get on with it, for the sake of DS. I would hazard a guess that around 80 - 90% of parents attending the children's mass every Sunday are doing the same thing as me.

"Thats interesting, we all know parents are sat in church when they don't really want to be, to get their child into the catholic school...so the parents of these poor white working class could do the same couldn't they?

Its not closed off is it, all you have to do is sit in church as much as you can before applying? Its the route thousands of parents have to take."

Decisions about allocation of state school places should always be centred on the needs of the child, not the lifestyle choices of the parents.

Have to say - I'm really shocked at the levels of cynicism and sharp elbowed behaviour here.

I'm saddened that the church is so desperate to attract worshippers that they're encouraging and supporting a practice which is deeply, deeply unfair to children, particularly some of the poorest and most disadvantaged children in the community.

Decisions about allocation of state school places should always be centred on the needs of the child, not the lifestyle choices of the parents.

This, this, this. A thousand times this.

I don't disagree, Archery. But that wasn't the subject of my thread. There are plenty of threads about the unfairness of the system. This one is about the nuts and bolts of how I negotiate it.

wow your church must be HUGE!!!!

ideally volunteer, help out etc

its a shitty system, then again as a born and bred CofE girl I am going to use the system to my advantage- it makes me feel guilty though

and I am not going every bloody week to get DC into secondary school, I hate that system

I do agree we have gone slightly off topic. Its really hard not to though, isn't it?

I too ask the question that was in the OP. It flummoxes me, as there does not seem to be any sort of system going on; no register, no signing in, nothing. How does the priest know? Our Church is very large and is packed to the rafters every week. Surely they cannot notice and remember all the faces?

I am actually thinking of joining another parish...a smaller one that is friendlier and more close knit. The parish I am at is massive and the priests are up themselves quite aloof. The Monsenior looks like a gangster and every time I see him I imagine him pulling an AK47 out from under his robes. Very intimidating.

To those of you who may be interested check out The Fair Admissions Campaign

Interesting link, thank you for posting.

I have signed up. Its about time something was done about it.

if all schools were good this wouldnot be an issue, if people "liked" local state primaries same as local state religious schools

but for some reason the CofE schools are better hence the furore

i am just curious why??

Not necessarily, fromparis. It's a question of distance, too. I live three minutes from a faith primary, but my DS had to walk every morning to a primary in another borough from the age of four, as he was the wrong faith for the nearby one. The school he went to was wonderful, but we could have done without the long, long walk to it every morning, and the same in the afternoon. Meanwhile children from halfway across the city drove across town to attend the faith primary a few yards from my front door. Which is both ridiculous, and a very common state of affairs.

From - schools which have more than their fair share of middle class families tend to fare well in the league tables and are often easier places to teach and learn.

mini

you have a good point- the standard offered by some CofE schools is not dissimilar to a private school. for some MC families its easier to attend a church than stump up 4000 per term

that said, whatever way you slice and dice it I find the morale, ethos, behaviours and general ambience far far better at the CofE school- but its a morally ambiguous situation

Can I ask, aside from the church attendance, if the vicar knows for a fact and has evidence that someone who is asking for a form to be signed does not actually act in a Christian way, can they sign a form saying "yes attends regularly but IMHO does not display Christian behaviour"?

I'm thinking of people who share bigoted views which are offensive to the majority (Britain First posts!), make extremely nasty personal comments about people by letter, get into fights etc?

Would the vicar be leaving themselves open to any legal action by stating such an opinion or is it generally accepted that such opinions are by their very nature subjective and so can't be challeneged? In my head I was comparing it to employment references, but then again as noted upthread, it's probably not directly comparable as employers can't use faith as a reason not to give someone a job.

Whoops - it wouldn't make any difference, I don't think. Schools have to lay out their admissions criteria publicly. Our CofE school, for example, makes it clear that there is a points system, and how they are allocated (x number of attendance on a weekly / fortnightly/monthly/occasional basis). There is no mention of 'Christian behaviour' and I doubt that any school, anywhere has that! They would have to be able to describe specifically what behaviours were required for admission, who would police it, and how points would be allocated!