to ask - if your DC go to a church school, then -

[nomdemere]

• if entry was based on church attendance, then how does your vicar know how often you go?

I'm not sure my vicar actually knows who I am, let alone notices me in the congregation every time.

Our CofE secondary has a points system based on frequency of attendance (monthly, fortnightly, 'most weeks', 'every week'). The vicar has to countersign I just can't see how our vicar will know which category I am in. He's not there every week himself!

How does it work where you are? I feel slightly embarrassed about actually asking him, it will sound rather pushy.

So there are no non-catholic options in the catchment Archery? Or is it just that the non-denominational option isn't as good?

People all over the country have the dilemma of sending their child to a school they feel isn't good. It's not uncommon. We have 2 schools in our catchment (one catholic, one non-denominational). The catholic one has a much better reputation than the non-denominational school, as is often the case.

There's just one secular school, Hamish, so no choice at all. And whether it is good or not is utterly irrelevant - the point is that Catholic parents have choice where non-Catholic parents do not.

Not sure this was intended to be a faith school bashing thread (there are enough of them already methinks).

Anyway our priest (RC) just knows because it is in a way like being part of a family and he notices when some of the parish are awol but just accepts as normal when they are there.

The solution to being noticed is simple - load your kids up with jelly beans before the service so they spend the entire time trying to splash in the font / play football in the aisle / peer up the vicar's robes.

When telling them off make sure you use their full name "oh Archie Jones I told you not to bring your ball - Archie Jones sit down now!".

Once they start greeting you with "oh god - you again", you'll know it is working.

The thing about faith schools is that they are a nice easy way of making sure that you only have children of functional parents who are interested in education. Which is great if you are that child but if you are the child of the parents who spend Saturday nights getting themselves drunk and then bashing hell out of each other (and so don't make it up for mass the next day) then it is just another way that you are disadvantaged.

I sometimes fantasise about setting up a faith school for worship of "The School". in the year that the child is in Y5 (or aged 3 if primary) the parents have to commit to 50 hours of commitment to "The School". (ie the equivalent of 1 years weekly church attendance.) There would be weekends where parents can help out with painting / DIY / gardening or you can help set up the website / come in regularly and help out in the classroom.

So not only would you get nice committed parents but all that commitment would have a productive end point too!

Archery, do we live in the same borough? Only one secular school here too. My worst nightmare if my boy ends up going there, it's awful. So no, not much choice.

Mumoftwoyoungkids that sounds like a great idea!

A secular school? I didn't know such things existed.

The closest we have are non-denominational schools. They are not secular. All schools in the UK have to "lead active worship" - even non denominational schools.

Where are thse "secular" schools?

Sorry to confuse things. By secular I actually meant non denominational.

In fact, the school in question is officially c of e, but take in all denominations. Which in theory is brilliant and perfect. But it's a shit school unfortunately.

OK- I was beginning to get a little excited there at the thought of secular schools- but they don't exist in the UK.

I find it genuinely baffling that people call other parents hypocrites for 'finding God' a couple of years before their kids are due to start school, but they don't think that faith schools accepting money from all tax payers, including non-faith ones, and then refusing entry to their children is hypocritical. Can someone explain?

Game set match, TwoInTheMourning

buffyp "Incidentally to all those who want church schools banned please tell me where local councils are going to find money to buy all land owned by the church where a lot of c of e schools sit on"

Well, I will, just as soon as you tell me where the churches are going to find the 100% of the school running expenses that are currently funded by the state..?

mumoftwoyoungkids - surely worth reading the free schools small print for that one? Use the phrase 'big society' and you might have a winner....

Mumoftwoyoungkids that is a seriously good idea

You ask to get a set of collection envelopes, they will sign you up, allocate your family a number, and each time you go to church you will put your own numbered envelope with your money in the collection basket, and the priest will know you have been there on the basis of your envelope being in the collection basket. He will know you came, heard, and gave money. And how often. Thats how.

I don't really understand how a borough can have 4 out of 5 secondaries as faith ones and 3 that take exclusively from that religion. Only about 10% of the population are Christians aren't they? So maybe 5 or 6% Catholic? How do these schools fill their places and where does everyone else go???

My children are so badly behaved in church that the vicar knows how regular we are. Wouldn't recommend this approach though :)

the problem there Boulevard is that the Churches do not have to run a school, whereas local authorities are duty bound to provide suitable facilities. What we currently have is a scenario which suits both the church and the state. Who cares about the people?

Personally I think it's embarrassing watching some of the parents at the local church, arse lick the vicar. I went to a friend's daughters christening and it was cringey.

I think faith schools need to be careful if they have specific criteria ie twice a month for 2 years that they can prove that attendance- not sure how they do this from memory??? Not sure it complies with the admissions code.

With regards to the church etc owning the land for faith schools, put CPO's on the lot and make them non denominational. In those areas where the school 'apparently' serves the community then nothing will change, in the areas where faith schools result in a very segregated society it would at least result in some integration which can only be a good thing.

If you want your children to learn about god isn't that what Sunday school is for?

How do these schools fill their places and where does everyone else go???

If it's in a big city, then everywhere is going to be oversubscribed, so there's always going to be enough to fill a decent established school. In this case, kids from Catholic families travel here from all across the city, while local kids either go to the one-and-a-half schools which will let them in, or have to travel out to undersubscribed (read: crappy) schools in other far-off boroughs.

All this is, of course great for stupidly increasing local traffic, as well as being a perfectly idiotic and inefficient way to run an education system.

The most successful state school in my very big London borough is a Catholic school which takes no non-Catholics. Also almost no poor or underachieving children, or children with special needs.

It's really noticeably non-representative of the community.

Shocking really. Disgraceful.

Oh just BTW, the local faith primary round here (which I refused even to apply to as I don't like faith schools or the shit they stand for) is the one that's just gone into special measures.
I did laugh. More at the other local toddler-group parents who wrung their hands at me when I said there was no way we were going to take up churchgoing to get DS into a faith school, and that his education would be ruined, etc. Faith schools are not necessarily good schools.

And a lot of the reasons why so many faith schools are seen as desirable is because a lot of parents believe that they are a way of keeping their own DC away from poor kids, or, you know, non-white ones...

Absolutely right SGB
I didn't want my DC to go to the local faith school for exactly that reason- it's 100% white and middle class. It in no way represents our local community.
It's very good results are based on its very capable intake and parental support. The hefty PTA contributions surely outweigh the lack of pupil premium funding.
People need to look at value added. The much more mixed, non-denominational local school my kids go to is actually better at teaching because it has to be to get results.
And I say this as a Christian.

Can I just say, the primary I went to (and the school I aim to get ds into) was and is, massively mixed, as in different races (but all Catholic).

The majority of pupils are Phillipino, and a lot of Nigerian, as well as children from other black Catholic backgrounds. I myself and half Egyptain, and when I was at primary, my best friend was from Ghana. So in my case, the whole race thing doesn't count, thank goodness.

Although this probably isn't true for the secondary school I have in mind, unfortunately.