to ask what the most important factors actually are in helping children do well academically

[somewherewest]

According to a poster over on the AIBU thread about grammar schools several essays suggest that "the most deciding factor of any child's academic achievement at school is the educational background of its mother and/or the number of books in the family home".

Is parental education genuinely such a decisive factor? If it is how do we go about trying to promote an educational 'level playing field' for all children?

Look at how well Chinese girls do in English schools (and indeed in China)

This is a bit of a myth. Some Chinese children in China do very well educationally, largely those from exactly the same demographic as those who do well in the UK/US - i.e. those with well educated, engaged, relatively well off parents. However, the majority of Chinese children have an education which is not fit for purpose, not due to a lack of effort, but due to lack of adequate provision and parental support. The main reason for the lack of parental support is that their parents have moved to the city to work 18 hrs a day making plastic tat for export, leaving them in the casual care of Granny, so it's not exactly about the lack of a family work ethic.

Children from low income families in singapore do better than children from high income families in the US/ UK. It is hard to know what chinese educaiton is like as the majority of china was entered for PISA tests.

I believe that rather than to replicate either the Singapore or Finnish system we need to see what these cultures have in common. British people and schools see ablity as something immovable and fixed where as more sucessful people see ablity as something to developed and grown.

The sterotypical immigrant chinese tiger mother believes that her children are capable of leanring the violin/ piano or getting As at school if they put in the work. The British/Western more laid back mother does not have the same level of ambition or the belief that anything is possible with hard work.

This is one of the biggest problems in British state schools.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29342539

Private schools are very good at clamping down on low level bad behaviour because they can chuck the kids out. I am not sure what the solution is for state schools which don't have that freedom.

The sterotypical immigrant chinese tiger mother believes that her children are capable of leanring the violin/ piano or getting As at school if they put in the work. The British/Western more laid back mother does not have the same level of ambition or the belief that anything is possible with hard work

Very interesting point.

Something I was alluding to on the Grammar thread. Its not only about mothers /father education but also their state of mind, and belief that anything is possible.

You hear so much defeated, not fair talk from some mothers on here, I believe more than any other disadvantage the child may have that attitude is the one that will stump the child most.

Yes, state of mind. I think anything is possible and I really annoy those "trapped" in poverty who are sure they will never get a job no matter what they do. I accept I am at the end of the spectrum in terms of ambition, happiness and certainty in myself, but we could certainly do with more women moving more from the "oh woe is me, nothing is to be done" end of things to the immigrant I can work my socks off and will do well side.

Of course it really helps the go getters if lots of people in the UK think it is hopeless to try very hard as they will always fail. As if you ensure your children don't have that mentality they have much less competition.

My cleaner's son is doing the LPC course which my daughters did (law post grad). I think that's absolutely marvellous. That you can move from a North African state, be brought up here, be educated in a UK state schools, your mother a cleaner (someone who actually works as hard as I do which is quite rare) and you can get that far is exactly why Britain is "Great".

The state of mind is the thing. That graft pays off. That it is worth doing more work than others because effort pays.

*I really annoy those "trapped" in poverty who are sure they will never get a job no matter what they do

I am not talking about those people, as there is a poverty trap and jobs are really hard to get esp at the moment.

As for immigrants working socks off, the ones I know of, all share lodgings sometimes several to a room, in cheap housing, and its not something anyone renting a house or mort could do.

Your cleaner is probably very aware due to her background of the opportunities available here and is going and getting them.

Education is different as its open to all and accessible to all, as long as they can mentally get in that zone.

Its not just parents letting children down with poor state of minds but schools, they should be able to inspire where parents are not.

I'm a teacher, my DH has a PHD and I have an MA. We have always encouraged our children to read, have a house full of books, take an interest in their education and had high expectations of them.

But my very clever 15 year old dd looks set to leave secondary school with - at best - 5 mediocre GCSEs.

Why? Because she's rejected all of our values, does little work at school and none at home.

Sometimes you can try your best, and it gets you nowhere.

Parenting can be a very humbling experience.

I think it expectations and attitude towards education including value placed on it.

I think that starts with expectation that you talk to very young DC.

I'm in a deprived area and was always surprised the number of parents happy to talk to my young DC and ignore their own non verbal DC - in fact I was in one case told it wasn't worth talking to this DC - yet he made noises and pointed and communicated about toys to me.

I also surprised in DH home town and here the number of parents who think education is solely the schools responsibility - so know an area their DC is struggling in tell the teachers and that it their part done. Not how do we help - or actively looking for stuff.

MIL isn't well educated or particularly keen on education past a point - yet she talked to DH, took him to library got involved in his projects - FIL emphases benefits on non-manual labour career and he's educated to PhD level. My parents did similar - though it was my Mum placing the value for her daughter on education and interestingly it us who’ve got degrees and post graduate qualifications but didn't to her DS who in min wage job.

To us this is parenting getting involved and encouraging little projects and interests - yet one of our DC teachers praised us for doing it - and kept on to that DC how lucky they were we did.

Our parents got us past low expectations from educational people - as we have with our DS. The area we are in has low expectations of boys - we had to work with DS at home to show him he could do things.

I expect parents who rarely see their DC but are highly educated mange to convey the high expectations and a good work ethic to their DC - and would be more likely to intervene with either time of money when the DC hit problems.

I do concede minifingers has a point – you can do everything right and the DC can still have no interest and no motivation.

I think the number of books is probably now out dated. They used to be main source of information - but these days with internet or even with iplayers and things like sky boxes making it easier to search for relevant tv programs – having access to information is less about books these days.

Chinese culture values struggle so quitting is very much frowned on, I agree. really I work as a funder in rural education in China, so I can honestly say it's pretty terrible outside major cities and for those without hukou in cities ( or rural to urban migrants). In Singapore, basic literacy is good but they ignore drop outs/ excluded kids or children who don't have to sit the tests ( ie those with SN) so their system works by only testing the kids who have proven aptitude and unchallenging behaviour. there is also a cultural aspect ( Chinese Singaporeans do far better than Malays for example) but this is also mirrored by income levels so hard to nail 'the answer'

Why? Because she's rejected all of our values, does little work at school and none at home.

The cobblers children mini.

I think that starts with expectation that you talk to very young DC.

Disagree my DC is the same, non verbal and I talk plenty to her but when I am out I explain to people she doesnt talk yet and I am happy to talk to their talking DC, that does not mean I do not talk to my DC, all the time day in and day out.

I also surprised in DH home town and here the number of parents who think education is solely the schools responsibility - so know an area their DC is struggling in tell the teachers and that it their part done.

In the best case scenario, its an all round effort but the school should be able to sufficiently support children of dis interested or poorely educated parenb t

minim, well I think children are 50% born not made and parents should not get too worried if the child is not what they expected although I am sure most of probably would prefer for the sake of the children that they do well at school.

My reference to Chinese girls was about studies of them in English schools more than China - I know the rural Chinese have lots of problems. I thought studies done of who does well in English schools had Chinese girls best of all categories. I don't accept that is just because they have the richest parents. I also think our thinking widely about subjects and not just rote learning is a Western advantage. My sons' school has an annual exchange to China although mine have not gone on it (silly boys) and they have 2 or 3 boys from China in their class who seem to have come over here to live with relatives in the UK to do GCSEs. They work hard although I think one has had such trouble with English they have made a 5th set below the 4th set just for him to help him catch up.

Anyway the interesting point on the thread here is state of mind, making children who have that drive to do well. Sometimes it's because their home life is awful that they fight out of poverty to get away and excel. Other times it's because the home life is happy and stable and conducive to working hard. Then you get lazy rich children who never do any work and fail - the clogs to clogs in 3 generations is a well known saying and is often true.

most of probably would prefer for the sake of the children that they do well at school.

Very inspirational thing I heard somewhere about girl not doing well at school, took her to some physiologist or education expert, the man left the room with the parent and left the radio on with music, the chilld was moving and dancing ( obv more to story) and he said there....its music she wants, put her in a school with music, the parent did and she became choreographer at ROH Ballet or something and top in her field.

Anyway the interesting point on the thread here is state of mind, making children who have that drive to do well

State of mind is not just encouraging X and Y and Z but also generally being positive, not teaching your DC that they are disadvantaged in an unfair UK where the rich get access to better everything.

That is not what I am talking about, I am talking about a general positive upbeat state of mind, which is probably something you are born with.

I would never ever tell my DC that they are dis advantaged! Because I do not believe they are. Its a frustrating and never ending way of thinking, where do you stop?

The last thing you want to impart to your own DC is this sense of hopelessness and pointlessness that invades British life.

Disagree my DC is the same, non verbal and I talk plenty to her but when I am out I explain to people she doesn't talk yet and I am happy to talk to their talking DC, that does not mean I do not talk to my DC, all the time day in and day out.

I know there are parents who talk to DC who are still non verbal - such a family lives down my road and do as you do - make people aware but don't discourage interactions - that not what I meant.

It's was very obvious difference in attitude that very visible over weeks if not immediately between the mother down my road at these groups and these others others - it's hard to put into words but an warenessof the DC in the first even when not talking or obviously interacting compared to that DC being ignored.

Taking to this particular mother who didn't see the point of talking to her DC and few others - some whose DC did talk but with less vocabulary than mine - over a period of time they did plonk their DC in front of toys and ignore them for entire session then freely say rest of day DC would be placed in front of TV with few toys while they got on with stuff. That considered normal parenting by them.

I automatically spoke to my DC - verbal or not because that was normal parenting to me - and I was shocked to find in this deprived area to many parents it's not done - and it's an obvious reason why so many DC in this area start school with limited speech and there are so many speak problems above other areas.

I'm not saying that all none verbal DC have parents who don't talk to them- there are obviously a variety of reason for speech problems in young DC - I am saying this attitude I've witness in this area we live in could explain or at least be a contributing factor why so many DC at 3 are behind verbally in this area.

In the best case scenario, its an all round effort but the school should be able to sufficiently support children of dis interested or poorely educated parenb t

True.

I get that some parents have so little interest in their DC that they have no idea when they struggle at school and they really are dependent on the school.

It's more the intermediate ones that I don't get. They are concerned enough to notice there is an issue they raise an issue once of twice with teachers and that them done. Even if no help is forthcoming to that DC - all they do is bitch to other parents as it's the school responsibility.

One parent knows that their DC not knowing their times tables is holding them back at maths - two years running she has raised it publicly with the teachers that year - what she hasn't done is helped her DC learn them or undertaken any of the suggestions from teachers or the other parents to help him learn them - I know that as she's admitted that.

I know spelling is adversely affecting my older two DC - so I offer support at home which should mean that they aren't held back academically by this problem. Ideally they wouldn't have any problems or they would have been picked up earlier at school and more interventions offered.

If something was holding my DC back academically I'd offer support to help them get past it rather than leave them to it. I shouldn't have to but getting past such things is going to help my DC academically long term.

I have seen what you have seen too Hexu. It doesn't even have to be speech. It is an awareness of smiling, pointing, subtle attempts at interaction that I've seen pass unnoticed or unacknowledged.

All those wasted opportunities in the first months and years. Everything else done afterwards is playing catch up.

Yes, you can hardly get a word in edge ways when this family gets together but that is because we are very verbal. Only one of the children did science A levels. I know an awful lots of scientists and computer programmers who are definitely not very verbal (although some are) and are brilliant and do well. I am reading a book about introverts at the moment. The writer found that the emphasis put by many companies on your verbal and social skills can be short sighted as plenty of the best people in business are good at working on their own and coming up with good ideas.

With my non identical twins before they could talk they got frustrated so they and I invented about 4 or 5 signs which really helped and I am sure there will be baby programmes you can buy to teach signing. Also some is innate. Both my boys are in the top set for English but one talks more than the other and always has even from age 2 - he would want to sit on your knee gabbering away even if just baby talk for hours and hours (and now is similarly on his phone on whatsapp etc) and his non identical genetically different brother who won the class sports prize would be the best crawler in the area content to be engaged alone in physical stuff. Same house, same parental input, same sex (always annoys me when people say girls talk and boys don't), different children.

My kids aren't especially chatty and it's not about quantity to my mind but how you are communicating, in all ways, backwards and forwards with a young child.

I can be quiet for very long periods but wouldn't/couldn't be with a baby tbh. Though we wouldn't look overly chatty to an observer!

We are sciencey types I guess. For budding engineers communication can be building a bit of lego then showing it off! No words needed.

Perhaps talk was a poorly chosen word - because I do agree with ConkerTime it really about communicating with young DC of which talking is a part - but it's also eye contact, pointing - cuddles and other physical ways impacting of information.

I'm not a great talker - but I did interact with my DC a lot.

I definitely agree with the comments about telling your children they're disadvantaged, poor old us and that its all the state's fault/conservative party's fault etc. Of course that will impact on a child's ability to feel that they can do anything they put their mind to.

It also drives me mad on the education threads when a poster comes on and says its pushy to teach your child and that it's the school's job. The school has to look out for hundreds of children at a time, we have only our own. It is my responsibility to help my children to do the best they can. That extends to choosing the right school and activities, supporting them with their homework and, if necessary, picking up and taking over when the school doesn't do the best job. DS2 goes to a highly rated selective independent school. He is fantastic at maths, has a very high reading age and a natural curiosity, but getting him to write a story is torture. The school isn't tackling it (or what they're doing isn't having an impact) so I will tackle it.

make people aware but don't discourage interactions - that not what I meant

yes but the parents are engaging with your child, I doubt they are not engaging with their own, just pointing it out to you.

I wonder how much value a few moments engaging with you will bring on the child.