to ask what the most important factors actually are in helping children do well academically

[somewherewest]

According to a poster over on the AIBU thread about grammar schools several essays suggest that "the most deciding factor of any child's academic achievement at school is the educational background of its mother and/or the number of books in the family home".

Is parental education genuinely such a decisive factor? If it is how do we go about trying to promote an educational 'level playing field' for all children?

Fwiw I was bright and the top of my class, but my old labour parents persisted in sending me to our very rough local comp. I had a horrible time and the years between 13-16 were lost. I picked it back up in A-levels and was excellent after that, but my self esteem was damaged, and I didn't get to learn what I would have enjoyed, and as a consequence had to teach myself grammar (of English!) when I was 18, at the start of my degree.

I wish they had pushed me to do an exam to enter a good school. At 11ish though, before that school was great.

Also the stress burnt me out. I was a very clever kid -- but had things happen to me like being forced to shoplift by bullies with knives. You think that sounds extreme but it's a pretty normal rough comp experience. No way could I concentrate on my GCSEs.

Smokepole

You are obviously taking the worst example's of the state taking children away (Poor Children sent to Australia , Aboriginal Children taken by the state and the story abut Native Canadians for your point). Why should it be the same in 2014 with all the protection and media scrutiny today. Children thrive in certain environments, they mimic their surroundings and the people within them .

A question: If you were a parent of a bright 11/12 Boy/Girl living in a Social Deprived area surrounded by Drug Gangs, Street crime Gun crime and a catchment school that sent more pupils to the criminal justice system than achieved 5 GCSE passes. What would you do?. You have two choices

1. The chance for your child to go to a brilliant academic school (with Proper care) that would probably get 80% of students in to higher education or in to highly valued and skilled careers .

2. Insist that you don't like selective or boarding schools and that your child liked his catchment school and had friends there.

No. That's not obviously what I am doing.

I am expressing my astonishment that you managed to incorporate such a loaded term while expressing a point of view that was already extremely controversial. You don't use weasel words, do you?

I'm afraid your hypothetical situation doesn't contain data about any of the things I value and worry about for my children's education. Just some local colour about the area, and some stats about GCSE passes.

I'm going to need more than that to see sending an eleven-year-old off to boarding school as the best option.

I think that there is a difference between OPTIONALLY sending a child to a boarding school for a better eduation and a child complusory being taken from their parents.

Even uneducated white working class parents can make sensible decisions about what is best for their children. There is a difference between an abusive family and a family that simply doesn't have middle class mumsnet like values on education.

Education is important but its not everything.

If you have a very gifted child then why not see if they can get some kind of scholarship? If they are naturally v. smart they will have no angst getting it and not need a tutor etc.

I think that there is a difference between OPTIONALLY sending a child to a boarding school for a better eduation and a child complusory being taken from their parents.

Even uneducated white working class parents can make sensible decisions about what is best for their children. There is a difference between an abusive family and a family that simply doesn't have middle class mumsnet like values on education.

This. A society that says, "ooh, you're poor/uneducated- here's an automatic offer to take them away and put them in boarding school" is labelling working-class/non-graduates as incapable. The kind of society that would ever dream of enacting such a scheme is also one in which the scheme would be compulsory.

I cannot believe arbitrarily declaring working-class/non-graduate families as inferior environment to boarding schools can ever be in the best interest of the children.

Debate has moved on now, but this website may be of interest:

www.literacytrust.org.uk/talk_to_your_baby

When I lived overseas in the 1990s a Belgian lady said why had I sent my DCs to boarding school? It was obvious to me that a good education at boarding school was better for my DCs than a dodgy education at the local international school.

But to her the better arrangement was keeping your DCs with you, in the family, enjoying a new culture and experience.

I think, with hindsight, it is a British thing to obsess about education.

I am certainly very anti boarding and pro selective day schools for all kinds of reasons but it would be thread deflection if we went into that.

As for what parents can do - talk to the child particularly if you have a wide vocabulary yourself. Read a lot yourself and for yourself and so the child sees that and also read to the child and let them read to you and do it every single day. Marry someone with a high IQ as I said earlier up the thread. Put time into the children. Hear times tables several times a week and spellings for primary school children. Get them to learn 1 or 2 musical instruments properly.

My grandfather left school at 12. Here are some of the things my parents did for us - my father paid for me to have a sort of science part thing - it came by post. We are talking primary school aged girl in the 1960s. He took us to lectures at Newcastle University aged about 12 - there were series of lectures on science for children at the university. He and my mother read and sang to us every night. They put off children for the first 10 years of marriage so they could save enough to afford school fees.

With our own children we have tried to do similar things. All 9 cousins are o have been at very academic selective fee paying schools from age 3 or 4 as we all were sensible enough to pick careers which paid enough for that and we all worked harder than most people work.

Make sure when children are teenagers that their peer group is industrious and all headed for leading universities. Keep talking to teenagers. They take in more than they pretend to. We listen the Today programme on radio 4 every day when I drive them to school which I am sure does them no harm and I suspect helps them to form their views. I love debates and discussions and I adore it when they have different views from mine. What I want is for teenagers to have views on everything and be very quick and good at speaking.

As a family we all spot grammatical and spelling errors -it's for its etc - all the time. It is a huge part of who we all are that we speak correctly and can spell. Anyone can try to inculcate that into their children. I found my mother's IQ tests done in her 50s after she died - 140 plus. That's pretty good for that age. She always soaked everything in - a bit like I do. If I've heard it before I don't forget it. If I've read a newspaper I then remember what was in it and I am sure that is in part because of my parents' genes and also their thirst for knowledge.

Smoke

We are doing neither of your suggestions, sorry to be difficult but you know what we are doing.

Greengrow, up thread you said that MN was mostly populated by women who had "given up " work or worked part time.

Do you have any evidence for this?

I've done a bit of work on this myself [puts on mortar board].

Ahem, I am not sure at primary level, but educational studies done at senior school and university suggest it it something called 'self-efficacy'. That is, the deep-seated belief that it is what you do, day in, day out that really makes the difference.

Young people who believe that they are 'intelligent' and people who believe that they are 'not that academic' both tend to lack persistence at higher levels of study, unlike those who really believe that it is what you do that counts.

You can make that observation as complex as you like - pointing out that that belief is a compound of several things - like emotional resilience to risk or withstand failure, the ability to delay gratification, realistic and healthy self-esteem, self-discipline, encouragement at home, respectful relations with teachers and socio-economic factors like access to good teaching, adequate resources and relevant gender/ethnic/class role.

The current economic situation for young people is also really damaging because it matters that they can look to the future and think 'if I put the work in to get x qualification I stand to get y (job/income/home) in future which I really want'.

Or you can make it really, really simple and say those who don't achieve don't put enough hours or effort in because they don't really believe that it will make that much difference. So it is really, REALLY important to praise persistence and taking on board constructive criticism rather than 'getting it right', or, conversely making it impossible for young people to ever fail..

[Gets down from podium]

Some of those studies were longitudinal ones done about poor kids from rough areas in the Bronx btw - some of whom went on to achieve great things and some of whom didn't. Of course anyone with degree educated parents and/or personal and domestic security and wealth is going to have shedloads of advantages over someone who doesn't.

oce, that's interesting. I think I am different from a lot of people in being self starting, thinking what we achieve is down to hard work and effort and making things happen and most people instead sit around moaning about their lot and don't put in half the effort I put into most things so not surprisingly fail. They think life is something to which they are subjected and must endure or accept rather than that they have massive control over their fate. I feel very lucky to be as I am compared to them.

echt unless greengrow works for MN then she couldn't possibly, it's clearly observational, but it is very likely to be the case that there is a disproportionate number of part time or non working MNers (not reflective of the population at large) otherwise the boards would be dead all day. Either that or we're all skiving and on MN when we should be working

I teach BESD children, most of whom under-perform academically: many are bright but their dysfunctional lives and chaotic circumstances have undermined their confidence, ability & desire to learn.

Children are instinctively curious (simple genetics: helped them avoid being eaten by sabre toothed tiger / trodden on by mammoth / frozen into iceberg etc by asking questions about the world around them). They need their questions to be answered in positive, constructive, coherent & consistent way.

Most of the kids I teach have zero general knowledge, or even knowledge of their own locality & circumstances. The ones who do have such knowledge are invariably highly intelligent, & whose BESD status comes from being ignored or academically under-valued at home & in Primary. The ones who don't have that knowledge could certainly have benefited from it.

My own DC, in contrast, have not had an easy life but have all (so far) done well academically, and are (I think) on the cusp of successful & satisfying adulthood. I like to think that this is because I tried to give a positive, constructive, coherent & consistent to each and every one of those often irritating childhood questions that range from death of hamsters to why ice cream tastes nice but hurts your teeth to why some planets have rude names etc

If you are prepared to take the time to convince your pre-school DC that you are the font of all wisdom, then it is quite easy to sub-contract that task to their school teachers when the time comes (provided you have a reasonable school nearby - my own school's (brilliant) Head sets us a single goal "Be as good as you want your own children's teachers to be."

PS. There should be an "almost worship" emoticon...

Greengrow

Bloody hell, I agree with you.
Every single word, except I can see that we would disagree with context.
But you are right, you have to make it happen.

I get that green:

DH and I both came from poor/socially disadvantaged backgrounds.

DH did A Levels and was encouraged to go to uni by his teacher but he signed on and ended up in public sector stagnating for years, but then through hard work he got a couple of promotions. He has ended up in private sector now and is high level almost as far as you can go.

I on the other hand found my way to Uni did and HND and BA (hon) ended up a teacher. Which I always felt was quite a respectable place to get to after comming from a 'broken home'. I do think if I had been pushed (or possibly sat on more during teen years) I may have ended up at a better Uni in one of the 'professions'.

I know parental involvement and expectations have changed but because of this we are quite proactove re our DC's schooling. Im am both explicit about DC doind stuff that supports their learning, and implicit - I like to take them to different places not just the cinema and park! I try to expland their experiences.

DH and I have talked many times abouthow we have got to where we are with no help really, just a pair of wannabees I guess. One of the important things we instil into DS is a good work ethic. We've just been talking about the type of life lesson and values we want the kids to have that we dont feel we were taught.

When you have had a poor education your children can see this and want to do better themselves.
Like andsmile my schooling was similar not broken home but learning difficulties and physically abused by teachers.
I left with nothing and gained my education during my thirties, but a surprise dd meant I didn't stay in teaching for long.
DD is in the position of not having to go to a bad school, she knows exactly what she wants to do, always has done and for the past 3 years has been planning how to get there, with the help of dh and myself. Some children I know are able to do this but to us it is sort of freakish.
She has been encouraged and supported but not pushed like I see and hear some parents.
Her Dad went to a grammar school but wasn't particularly academic and still isn't.

Thanks, atticus, but I didn't ask you.

Why say thanks Echt when you clearly mean f off?

You asked a stupid question you already knew the answer to just to be argumentative.

Apologies, atticus. It wasn't my intention to be rude.

My question was not stupid, but utterly serious. I'd really like to know what
Greengrow, who by the detail of her posts is not short of an opinion or two, is basing her sweeping opinions on. If she'd like to pop in here and say it's her perception, then fine. I very much doubt she needs you to front for her.

She's been very shy about answering my question, though.

Yes, work ethic counts. Look at how well Chinese girls do in English schools (and indeed in China). It's just about that belief that if you put a lot of effort in you will get results. The rather lazy socialist type mentality the opposite of mine is that big state or rich people or God is causing people's troubles and no matter what they do things will never improve so no point in getting out of at bed at 5am to make something happen. It's a defeatism. of course I understand that that can come from the fact everything someone has ever done has failed or because they genuine have an IQ of 80 and that makes it hard for them to succeed no matter what effort they put in or other bad luck factors but I see the defeatism in many who don't have anything like that. They just cannot be bothered.

However as happiness does not come from having an income like mine in a sense it doesn't relaly matter on an individual basis if you are happy on £5k or £18k or £50k a year. Success in a sense is being content with what you have although that is not what the thread is about.

My oldest child won top prize in a competition when she was 9 - it was a cruise for 2 down the Nile. She picked up over 100 scratch cards off a floor so sure was that she would win top prize. People who aren't optimists or would not put in that effort would not have bothered. In other words there is an element of making your own luck.

This does not mean I don't have sympathy for people whose lives are hard.

So how to pass what is basically a work ethic on to a child? Example. work hard yourself. most people are pretty lazy so it's not hard to stand apart from the herd even just like Woody Allen said by turning up, being utterly reliable, always being there. Just being there on time is rare - just look at most traders who miss dates, are late, don't allow enough time for traffic or friends who cancel meetings/dinners with you.

Secondly don't hand everything on a plate to children. Like my parents I have been happy to pay for my children's education. I will invest in something like university for them but I will not invest in paying for hair extensions or alcohol for them or cosmetic surgery.

(I was asked twice above how I know most mumsnetters don't work full time. I have not done a survey but as is said above given the people around during the day and the national statistics on women who go part time or flexitime when their children are under 5 it is likely).

Thanks for the, er, stats. Massive assumptions here. You simply cannot infer MN readership from national data. Well, you can, because you've just done it, but it rather reduces the validity of your assertion about MNers.

Goady generalisations. A rather like the one you!'ve just posted about most people being lazy. Based on what?

Carol Dweck has proved what Greengrow has posted through years of research. Its important for people to believe that they can improve their lot and the lot of their family.

www.mindsetworks.com/

Happiness or even being sucessful isn't necessarily about career or earning money.

Even people born with an unfair hand in life can achieve independence and happiness. For example people with conditions like FragileX or Downs can find employment and live independently with the right parenting and education. They might not have high flying careers like Greengrow, but they are happy.