To start a thread inspired by, but not about, indyref?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

In the run up to the Scottish Independence Referendum, we had some fabulous, spirited, enlightening and enthusiastic debates on this board. I know I learned a lot from talking with so many politically aware people, and a few people have suggested that we start a thread to try and continue some of the best parts of the discussions.

So this is a thread for us to discuss what we feel is wrong with our country, some possible solutions and how we can do something about it. It's not a thread for debating independence, justifying our votes or for recriminations and anger; more somewhere to chat about some of the underlying issues such as our constitution/political structure, welfare, social justice and equality which concerned people on both sides of the independence debate. I'm also not proposing this as an exclusively Scottish debate although I suspect it will be dominated by us, as many of these are UK-wide issues.

So, what needs to change? How can we make our individual countries and union better?

Yeah, his speech on Friday morning suggested that he only saw himself as the leader of those who voted yes, rather than the leader of the whole of Scotland including thosr who voted no. That I think made his position pretty untenable.

I know we need more devolution to satisfy the yes voters, or some at least. You're right re the Scotland act, I think it's an across the board increase. Hopefully the proposed new powers will be more flexible or at least give enough autonomy over benefits that if it has to be an across the board increase it can be redistributed properly

I think Salmond is suited to be leader of a "movement" with a common cause (45% is really very impressive given where the SNP have been in relatively recent times). I don't think he's a statesman able/inclined to balance conflicting interests. I also think he's quite self-aware. He was probably right to quit.

Chipping, I think that simplifying the split of block grant to population numbers isn't the answer either. The SE is densely overpopulated & that would simply result in far more money flowing into the SE, leaving the remainder of the UK, inc Scotland, at a significant financial disadvantage. It wouldn't address the issue of England outside the SE & wales receiving a greater split to even up their position with Scotland, and would simply end up with Scotland, Wales, NI & NE/NW/mid England all suffering at the expense of the SE of England. Even with house prices at insane levels & population levels at (IMO) uncomfortable levels, the draw to the SE is still happening, and will no doubt continue. So while it seems a v simple solution in your view, I can see that creating more problems that it solves. That not going to help unite everyone in the aftermath of the outcome of the referendum IMO.

I don't disagree that there should be some attempt to address this, but you can't say scrap it because it's unfair but then not properly define what is fairer because that in itself is an incredibly complex issue to unravel. If it is inherently unfair, you at least need to seriously consider what is a better/fairer/more equal split, so we all feel that a different split is a better way to go. How you manage that? I haven't got a clue.

As an aside, I honestly don't know how the SE is going to continue to grow in terms of population, with the infrastructure that will need. I only have v limited anecdotal info on this but I spent time in London in the 90s, as my cousin lived there & I had holidays there etc. & even then I felt it was busy/overcrowded. Hadn't been there in years until last year & I genuinely couldn't live there the way it is. It feels like it's gone beyond saturation levels.

Wheels

Why have you split England up? We are one country.

I don't disagree that there should be some attempt to address this, but you can't say scrap it because it's unfair but then not properly define what is fairer because that in itself is an incredibly complex issue to unravel. If it is inherently unfair, you at least need to seriously consider what is a better/fairer/more equal split, so we all feel that a different split is a better way to go. How you manage that? I haven't got a clue

I'm not saying 'scrap it' I am saying keep it, just make sure the population levels are correctly calculated.

Disagree with my suggestions and ideas, that's fine but please do not accuse me of not seriously considering things and not trying to make it fair. That is misleading and grossly unfair. My suggestions might be shit, but my sole objective is for anything that comes from WM is fair for all of us

Sorry back from being out. Yes to the Dutch connection, DH is Dutch and we lived there for many years. I was thinking of Europe and the far East, where I have lived as well, in terms of how we are perceived from the outside which basically doesn't understand the structure and just sees us as the UK or England. There's no concept of how this could be offensive to a few million people - I mean why would there be, they are halfway round the world pr halfway round Europe where it is all Big Ben, bagpipes, David Beckham and Manchester United. It is all viewed as part of the same thing. Where there are exceptions I've found, are places like Singapore where there was a strong connection with the UK.

It's like when you go travelling and everyone assumes you are from London and do you know a Mr and Mrs Brown who lives there

happyscot I found it highly entertaining to try and explain in my Dutch classes why you couldn't refer to a whole country as England (it was even in my textbook on a map) but I am not sure I got very far Actually the best analogy I found over the years was telling someone from Rotterdam they came from Amsterdam and vice versa - I had fun with that one

DH also fails completely to understand the fuss over the referendum, the government structure in the UK and how everything relates to everything else. It is quite refreshing I find :) and tbh I sometimes struggle.

All my rambling above is basically about national identity. We are perceived very differently to the outside than we internally view ourselves. It's fine to have separate national identity, Scots, Welsh, NI - but how do you preserve the Britishness, those things that link us together? I think this has gone missing over the years. We are separate yet together at the same time.

Sorry that was an overabundance of smiley faces!

The SE isn't London in the same way that Glasgow or the Isle of Mull aren't Scotland. I live in a village in the SE. London is FABULOUS and I miss living there. But you see, that's partly what I am saying. You seem to think I don't understand the complexities of it - yet you haven't spent much time in the much complained about SE. All parts of the UK have their difficulties. I don't know how we get to something that is fair because it's so subjective and we don't have years to naval gaze, we need an answer and we need it now.

I happen to think a population based split is the fairest thing we can come up with right now. If you have another suggestion, I'm all ears :)

I still think something that is a sort of sliding scale which acknowledges the different costs of working in areas with different densities is probably needed. Possibly also something which builds in a few other key factors like the age of the population - older populations tend to need more health/social care etc. I think there could be a few others too, and probably some would only apply to certain elements of the budget. It wouldn't actually be that hard for people with a decent mathematical/economical/statistical background to do I don't think and needn't take a massive amount of time as much of the information that would be needed to do it already exists.

Zuid, our lives have a few similarities. My DH is Dutch. We have also lived in the M.E. Our perceptions of the Dutch and how they can interchange the words British/Scottish/English is very similar.

I whole heartedly agree with you (though obviously not everyone on this thread does, lol), Dutch people do get very confused with the “separate but together” role Scotland has in the UK. Now when Dutch people tell me “Scottish is the same as English”, I agree with them with “Dutch is the same as German”. That brings home to them the inaccuracy as well as the potential insult of getting nationalities wrong.

As for the M.E, not sure this will help you, but say for instance talking with Omani’s or Saudi’s. I used to say to them that Scotland and the UK is a bit like Dubai or Abu Dhabi and their role in the UAE. 7 separate emirates, 1 “united arab emirates”. Then the UK is 4 countries and 1 united kingdom. They seem mostly to get that.

That “define British-ness” you mention. I have no idea how to define that. I can define Scottish, English, N. Irish or Welsh-ness, British-ness is quite another matter. I feel very British, although I would be hard pushed to define what makes me feel British. For me what makes me British is the same as what makes me Scottish.

I still think it would be very very difficult to do (well, not so much 'do' as decide what to include) and no matter how fairly someone independent has tried to be, if the spending per person coming from WM to the 4 devolved administrations isn't the same for each then there will be a perceived unfairness and that will continue to be a thorn.

How do you put a value on something such as England bearing the cost of the specialists and the hospitals that other members of the UK have access to as well as the transplant register and making available organs and blood - or do you not think that's important?

How do you factor in the fact that someone might be x miles from their local hospital but have to travel to one much further away because it doesn't provide x service.

As you said SC there's the age of the population to factor in - how often would that be reviewed?

Anyway - do we have a consensus that the way forward is a 4 way devolution instead of a 3 parts devolved and one part stuck with WM?

Oh it's definitely complicated and you could never get everything factored in, it would always be unfair to someone. But I think straight "x per head" is probably too straightforward.

But, I don't think how the money is split between the regions is the only issue either - I mean, there were some people during the referendum run up saying Scotland didn't get enough money in general but more of them were about the distribution of it and about a feeling that the Tory cuts were punitive.

Marking my place. It was a pleasure sparring on the indyref threads during that extraordinary time. I feel as if I am emerging from a weird dream with a huge hangover.

Me too (place marking that is :)). Off to read and catch up before I comment.

Housing. This needs to be addressed by a massive spend on good quality social housing that is attractive and does not carry a stigma of living there.

Agreed Phaedra. The cost of renting is out of hand - people are quick to blame it on evil BTL landlords but actually, whilst there are some charlatans, they're only really an issue because people don't have a choice. Right to buy meant that the number of available council houses went down far too drastically. There was always a private rental market, even a BTL market, and it has its place. But we need more affordable social housing.

If that existed it would also remove some of the desperate need to buy which many people feel because of the insecurity of renting privately. Which might help house prices to calm down a bit - hopefully they'd just slow down rather than crash spectacularly.

SC I don't think how the money is split between the regions is the only issue either

Definitely not, but there was only so much my brain could handle this afternoon, one issue at a time

Why do the people of Scotland think the Tory cuts were punitive to them and not the whole of the UK?

Hi guys, nice to see you all :)

Only skim read but I'm keen to jump in, hope no-one minds.

I'm a single parent, working but on a low wage.

I really want to see things like childcare addressed (some of you will remember me banging on about childcare and the white paper).

I think an increase in the provision of good quality childcare is hugely important but we really need to address the issue of infrastructure, which just isn't in place at the moment.

Agree also the housing is a big issue. There isn't enough good quality, affordable social housing available. I'm not sure what to do about it though.

I don't think they do think (too much thinking!) that it was only punitive to them. It was just worse here because Scotland didn't vote Tory.

This is interetsing ( to me)

Survation did a poll in England and Wales a few days ago. One of the questions was " Which of the following areas do you think should be the government's main priority for the rest of the time until the next general election?"

The responses were:

Economy 20.2%
Health / Schools 8.7%
Europe 3.6%
Constitutional reform of the UK following the Scottish referendum, 4.7%
Welfare reform 3.7%
Jobs 8.7%
Housing 3.0%
Defence 2.7%
Anti Terrorism 6.2%
Immigration 31.1%
None of these 1.1%
Don't know 6.3%

I don't think they do think (too much thinking!) that it was only punitive to them. It was just worse here because Scotland didn't vote Tory

Ah. Yes, it always feels worse when you haven't voted the governing party in - mind you, that covers most of the voters this time around :)

Yes, very interesting. I wonder who they polled and how many people (or should I know that given it's a survation poll??).

I really want to see things like childcare addressed (some of you will remember me banging on about childcare and the white paper). I think an increase in the provision of good quality childcare is hugely important but we really need to address the issue of infrastructure, which just isn't in place at the moment.

Me too. I totally agreed with the points you made about the White Paper. I can't see myself going back to work for years because we just won't be able to afford childcare for three, and so by the time I could work, I'll probably be too out of date.

I will not, however, put my children into a nursery staffed by daft 17 year old girls who have completed basic college courses.

I haven't a clue what you could do about this though.

statisticallychallenged

Immigration 31%! The fact that it's the hot topic is down to scaremongering UKIP and the Mail some of the media.

Found you. Thanks Latte.

One of the issues that has never been properly addressed by Scot Gov is rural broadband. They paid to upgrade the exchanges (BT - the telephone BT) and yet cared nothing for properties too far from the exchange to benefit. This cuts off rural areas from many services online and is affecting our own cottage business because guests want wifi nowadays.

With infrastructure, comes jobs and prosperity. This is in the hands of the existing government, under devolved powers. To be honest, I would rather they stopped fighting about independence and looked at issues they already control but do little about. Imagine if all that independence effort was expended on answering the needs of the people.

It was a poll of 1081 people chipping, looks like a reasonable spread without doing too much analysis of it"

Agreed re childcare SantanaLopez. I'm not sure government run nurseries, certainly based on what I've seen of them, are the answer though. A lot of people who do use childcare, especially for littlies, prefer small settings too which I doubt they would be.

Of course childcare is a devolved issue. Which means that the Scottish Government could have done something about it if they wanted to rather than dangling it as a lure...

However that is not in the spirit of the thread so will stop right there. Suffice to say it is something that the SG can (and should) address.